2005-06-16 [DanClark]: And soon the reality of what we live in will be altered...

2005-06-17 [Estantia]: did you read that new scientist article then? it says we need to redefine reality, but what did we define it as in the first place?

2005-06-17 [thoughtfox]: an interesting link for you, Estantia: http://www.newscientistspace.com/channel/space-tech/astrobiology/mg18524911.600 - 13 things that do not make sense. every scientific definition is not foolproof - it's based on a theory. and about the chain reaction - are people really agreeing or do they just not want to be alone? us humans make lovely sheep, you know...

2005-06-17 [Estantia]: oh yes they do make wonderful sheep, unless they get chucked out the herd, THEN they start thinkning *grin*. I've read the 13 things that don't make sense, blame a schoolfriend... he was the one that told me about New Scientist...

2005-06-29 [1.618]: Hello all... mind if I join you?!

2005-06-29 [Estantia]: i don't....

2005-06-29 [DanClark]: Welcome to the class...

2005-06-29 [Estantia]: where were we?

2005-07-04 [DanClark]: Thoughts and actions that affect and effect our world, regardless of size.

2005-07-04 [nokaredes]: And the worlds of other people.

2005-07-04 [1.618]: As in actions that tip balances?

2005-07-04 [Estantia]: or how it tips it...

2005-07-05 [DanClark]: But more why it tips it....

2005-07-05 [Estantia]: but when it is tipped what does that do? if you think marble run terms it sends it onto different paths, which could go anywhere and join up at any time, so some of the other choices have to cancel themselves out.

2005-07-05 [DanClark]: Yes, or cause a deflection or redirection of a given series of events.

2005-07-05 [Estantia]: yes, that makes sense.

2005-07-05 [1.618]: But in a marble run, is there not a predetermined destination?! An end to the run, somewhere you are aiming for? Thus, the choices we make are irrelevant as to where we go in life, because we already have our destination. Choices do not change our destination, merely the way we reach it which is an entire exploratrion in itself. One could call it fate if they wished. I would have to agree with the cancelling out thing... we always end p in the same place, no matter how we get there, meaning that we are constantly changing direction in life. This can only be achieved by canceling out. Just as a left turn can only be canceled by a right turn to keep us in a straight line...

2005-07-05 [1.618]: And also, I see the aim of something like a ball bearing maze as getting the ball bearing to the end as quickly as possible. The quickest way between two points is in as near a staright line as you can go. Right? But to achieve the near 'straight line', you would have to take the sensible and logical turnings, thus getting us to the destination quicker. So does that mean that if someone makes all the sensible decisions and logical choices in life then they will terminate sooner? Thus dying earlier than the illogical fool who rushes ahead?! So not conciously thinking about our actions may alter our paths, but we get there eventually, be it sooner or later... hopefully later!

2005-07-06 [TheRogue]: some will say that everything is predestined. the path may lead to one outcome, but the journey could be full of happiness, or sadness, depending on your choices, also, those choices could lead others to paths as well.. everything exists in a series of loops and circles (IMO). Sometimes sensible and logical reach dead ends and you must turn to another path to achieve your goal. Sometimes thinking is the last thing you must do, instead act on instinct and gut feeling because there is no time for cognitive thought.. there are so many different situational parameters and variations of one path that they constantly overlap and compound on each other..

2005-07-06 [TheRogue]: you may be destined for a certain life, but your choices might lead you away from that destiny to somewhere else, but who's to say it was this new path that was your true destiny? It is hard to know or understand until after it has occured, which is why there is always only theory and never hard evidence supporting or discouraging those ideas.

2005-07-06 [DanClark]: Well put Rogue.... I look at life as a journey. There is a beginning and an end. A circle. People who have found a type of inner peace; they've discovered the arc on which they should be...and the road becomes less bumpy. Too often people struggle against what and who they are and that causes the ripples and pain in our existance. There are two sayings that I take to heart greatly: 1. there are things in life you do well and then there are the things you like to do...if you're really lucky they are the same. 2. it doesn't matter what you do, or how much you make, so long as you're happy and it doesn't affect the happiness and freedoms of those around you.

2005-07-06 [Estantia]: yes, but your happiness may cause another's pain, we're all interlocked so implicitlythat chaos theory could ocme into play, a simple even could go through the links, or turns, whatever you see it as, and later come back as something massiz. Also, who's to say there's only one end point?

2005-07-06 [thoughtfox]: there can only be one end point if it is destiny. The thing is, we don't know what it is, so there are infinite possibilities. And as for the happiness causing others pain, perhaps we have that Karma notion there, whereby in one life you harm me, in another i harm you, and then in the following we are very close (i know there was a fourth... does anyone remember it?) Perhaps this whole universe is just perpetually in motion because of this - the balance is not still, it is constantly swinging from side to side, hence malice and kindness are both needed. But could it ever reach a point of balance? i mean, wars are no longer a glorious thing to us...

2005-07-06 [Estantia]: but there is still immense suffering and death, even in supposed peacetime.

2005-07-06 [1.618]: But isn't happiness infectious?! How can one person's happiness alter another's?! Do you mean subconciously, or do you mean that the level of happiness on Earth must balance the suffering to make the world a stable place?!

2005-07-06 [TheRogue]: I get the job. You didn't. we both wanted the same thing. I got it and I am happy. You didn't and you are not happy. :)

2005-07-06 [DanClark]: Balance is having a great good and a great evil....not a great neutrality.

2005-07-07 [Estantia]: there is still great good and evil, it's just changed in form, who can say that africa is not suffering as greatly as some countries in war? Who can say 12 people having most of the world's wealth is good?

2005-07-07 [1.618]: But the person getting the job may not be happy at home, or in life in general. The peson who doesn;t get the job may be down for a little whil but may have a great family or whatever... there's nothing to say that there are always two extremes...

2005-07-07 [Estantia]: exactly, but the happiness/sadness of getting the job affects the family, which affects their friends etc. it all weaves in. and it may even turn out that the company goes bankrupt, in which case the person who didn't get it is better off.

2005-07-07 [DanClark]: But more look at the world as a whole...there must be good and evil, because without one...the other ceases to exist. You must also tak into account that good and evil are not concrete things but perceptions.

2005-07-07 [1.618]: As in who can say where the boundaries are?

2005-07-08 [DanClark]: The only boundries in life are those you set for yourself.

2005-07-08 [1.618]: Exactly...

2005-07-08 [Estantia]: and that's what makes conversations like this so interesting.

2005-07-08 [1.618]: I had noticed!!

2005-07-08 [Estantia]: i know you did...

2005-07-19 [DanClark]: OK... how about a loaded topic: Fate or Free will? which is it and why?

2005-07-19 [Estantia]: have you been reading my quizilla quizzes? (free will or fate?) i think we've discussed it, but a mixture of both. general i think is fate, but the way you follow it is free will.

2005-07-19 [1.618]: Yeah, that sounds right to me. Going back to my terminal destination theory!!!

2005-07-19 [Estantia]: back to my analogy of the path, the general direction is fate, the route you walk is free will.

2005-07-19 [Sylvia Rote]: Basically like a map; different routes to the same location(s).

2005-07-19 [DanClark]: Well... if we assume that deja vu is a glimpse of the future...then the future would be only one path. With that in mind we are simply following a predetermined set of rules to end at a give destination.

2005-07-19 [nokaredes]: I've been wrong about my deja vu before...

2005-07-20 [Estantia]: yes, bu most of the time mine are right.

2005-07-20 [nokaredes]: But not always. That means that you could have seen a different possibility when you were wrong.

2005-07-20 [DanClark]: Or that you simply needed to see what you saw tobump you back to the right path...a kind of gentle nudge of fate...

2005-07-20 [Estantia]: *shakes head* my nudges are usually coincidence, and usually i can spot them.

2005-07-20 [1.618]: But isn't deja vu glimpsing the past?? Technically, you only experience deja vu once you realise that you've already been where you've just been right??

2005-07-21 [TheRogue]: a glimpse into the past is memory..unless it's not YOUR memory.. then that is a whole different box of cereal.. you are generally right about what you said about experiencing deja vu as far as I know.. you usually don't realize it until it's already past.

2005-07-21 [Estantia]: yes, usually, there are always exceptions though.

2005-07-21 [DanClark]: There is also predictive Deja vu.... It's happened to me a few times, where I have the feeling that something has happenned before and know what will be coming next.

2005-07-21 [Estantia]: those are the exceptions...

2005-07-21 [TheRogue]: I have gotten so close to predictive Deja Vu that I almost physically throw a FIT when I don't catch it.. LOL i'm like.. DAMMIT I ALMOST HAD THAT ONE!!!!

2005-07-21 [thoughtfox]: I'm not sure i understand... i thought all Deja vu is predictive - at least, all of mine have been. first i dream of something, and then it happens.

2005-07-21 [DanClark]: The thing is to realize it before or during...not after it has happenned.

2005-07-21 [1.618]: Because by then the moment has passed...

2005-07-22 [Estantia]: i usually realize during and do something, though I do know what's going to happen (short term) in others without deja vu.

2005-07-22 [thoughtfox]: i've only ever realised after... i don't suspect my dreams to be direct prophecies of the future, as they are seldom direct. But what really annoys me - when i have lost something fairly important (ie, a school project worth half my grades) and dream that i find it... only to wake up :(

2005-07-22 [DanClark]: I like to use visualisation when that happens... Kind of rewind you last few hours or so and 'see' where you left it..

2005-07-22 [Estantia]: yes, following your route through the house.

2005-07-25 [TheRogue]:

[**NEW**]

2005-08-01 [TheRogue]: [DanClark] Is now your professor. Please do not ask why, just be glad because he is an able and worthy professor and deserves it.

2005-08-01 [Estantia]: I'll be glad.

2005-08-01 [1.618]: Whoop!

2005-08-11 [hive]: i like it, on with the learning, im all eyes

2005-08-11 [Estantia]: and other senses at all, that's a good point, sixth sense.

2005-08-12 [DanClark]: So...what next to discuss?

2005-08-12 [Estantia]: sixth sense is my suggestion

2005-08-12 [thoughtfox]: As in extra-sensory perception? that's a pretty broad section...

2005-08-12 [1.618]: All the more reason to explore such phenomenons... (is that spelt correctly?)

2005-08-13 [thoughtfox]: Yes, i know... i was just pointing out - where to begin. I suppose dejavu is a form of it... (and, btw: phenomena ;) )

2005-08-13 [Estantia]: there must be some sort, for instance the way animals can sense storms and earthquakes, is that the earths magnetic field or isobars? or maybe both? it's not quite the same as the normal esp though.

2005-08-13 [thoughtfox]: Earthquakes emit sounds at very low frequencies, too low for humans but certain animals, possibly many, are able to hear them. For example, elephants, i know for certain, can hear these low frequencies. Can someone better learned in Biology tell me if most animals can?

2005-08-14 [Estantia]: somewhere I read that cats and dogs could sense the earth's magnetic field. Surely low pitched sounds wouldn't tell the animals so long before the earthquake hit.

2005-08-14 [thoughtfox]: no, that it wouldn't... my science teacher and i were thinking about the tsunami. sorry.

2005-08-15 [DanClark]: Most things that we call ESP are actually ignored senses. Humans, as a rule , tend to become absorbed with a task at hand and are unaware of the world around them. We are after all...animals too, so the principle of a trap should also apply to us.

2005-08-15 [Estantia]: of a trap?

2005-08-15 [DanClark]: Sure... applying a desired item to blind the other senses. Life is our trap....we close our eyes to the signs around us, and are stunned when something goes wrong even though they were quite well marked.

2005-08-15 [Estantia]: hm, would this be people refusing to see sod's law and the like? or bigger?

2005-08-16 [DanClark]: Depends on what you would deem bigger. I like to think of it as really good misdirection. Keep the audience's attention busy over here, so they don't notice what I'm doing over there.

2005-08-16 [Estantia]: that makes sense, but also the way we are almost trained to think some things ie. vampires are bad, for an example.

2005-08-17 [DanClark]: Exactly... we are herded towards a common sense of right and wrong. Now I'm not saying that we should abandon all that is morally acceptable....But there are some things that seem off, but we accept them because it is the norm.

2005-08-17 [Estantia]: exactly, it seems strange so many people are given the same values rather then thinking, but i guess it's easier...

2005-08-17 [DanClark]: ....like herding sheep.

2005-08-17 [thoughtfox]: Hmm... i've also heard something similar, very often. Susan Ferguson (www.inannareturns.com) explains that there are billions of realms around us all the time, but that nowadays, in the age of confusion (Kali Yuga) we're unable to see them. check this article out: http://www.inannareturns.com/articles/imagination.htm

2005-08-17 [DanClark]: Interesting article...but as a counterpoint... perhaps this redirection is to equalize the thoughts of all to better everyone. I mean, a world of like-minded beings would/should equivilate to a world without conflict. What are other people's thoughts on this? 

2005-08-18 [Estantia]: well yes it SHOULD. however there are always tiny differences, has anyone noticed that all religons are basically saying the same things? The only things that make them different are the small details that don't really matter, and what do people war over? the small details. I think the same principle applies to thoughts, there are tiny differences, and that's all it takes.

2005-08-18 [DanClark]: Exactly... so, with that thought in mind, religion is as distinct and unique as the individual themself.

2005-08-18 [thoughtfox]: Hmm, i don't like the idea of removing individuality. We were all created uniquely and experience life differently for a reason. Eatern metaphysics claim that we exist as machines that explore different possibilities for the absolute.

2005-08-18 [thoughtfox]: The contest of religions is a different thing which enfuriates me. As Estantia said, all religions are, in their deepest essence, the same. Fighting for religion has to be the most pathetic thing us as humans do. The difference between religions is important, as DanClark points out, because we were created differently, and why would the creator do that if he wanted us to come back as clones. But do you realise that we as humans have taken sacred sites, such as Jerusalem and the Babri Masjid, and turned them into hell because we've fought so much?

2005-08-18 [DanClark]: It is the nature of religion, that 'God' in which you believe be all powerful.

2005-08-18 [DanClark]: Earlier in this thread I stated my belief that we are all angels, and that God was telling a story. But we didn't understand what he meant by love and hate and pain and happiness....so He created a world so we could experience everything. Once we have been re-incarnated enough times to have experienced everything...then he will continue his story.

2005-08-18 [Estantia]: but with so many people to learn, he will never be ale to continue. I think that life is one huge story, everyone's intertwined, there's a storyteller at the heart that shifts things, that is and tells the story, that's every one of us and nothing at all. They don't help, they guide, and weave their stories together as we make them. so we aere all the storyteller.

2005-08-19 [thoughtfox]: yes, but then again, as is fundamental in Eastern metaphysics, we ARE ALL GOD

2005-08-19 [Estantia]: I can't explain myself properly, I'll try thinking it through more thoroughly where I can see everything I've written at once

2005-09-15 [hive]: if i am a child of god then i am god, or at least a piece in the puzzle, i think estantia makes a good point by bringing up that we are all teachers and learners in this life, maybe we are here subconcoisely, and our real selves are playing us, like a game. or as teachers and students we are to constantly strive for higher learning no matter how many lives it takes.

2005-09-15 [DanClark]: Another thought is to look at your dreams...it was stated that it would be a huge story to consider that everyone is being 'lead' through this/these lives so we can continue a story that may or may not exist. In your own dreams, you create and control what happens...so isn't it conceivable that God can do more? If you do not believe in a higher power, then think of it as a combined consciousness that maintains the existence...as one half experiences life the other half maintains it...a cycle of consciousness

2005-09-15 [Estantia]: I never thought of it like that, but the concept of god is portrayed often as a teacher, so it could almost be feasible, only we tell the story, like an rpg almost.

2005-09-15 [thoughtfox]: Yet eastern philosophies suggest that God is experimenting through us - so God is the student as well as the teacher

2005-09-15 [Estantia]: there is a balance in everything, so why not? all things are part of everyting in a sense.

2005-09-15 [DanClark]: If God is a student and teacher... wouldn't that push the idea that we together are God? We each hold a small part of the cosmic fabric tightly between our fingers, and every decision we make sends ripples of energy racing through the cosmos?

2005-09-16 [hive]: not only every decision, but every thought as well, since time is not an absolute, our subconscious is free to move though it, to the past, present, and future, teaching us though dreams and in some cases warning us of things to come.

2005-09-16 [Estantia]: the theory, in essence, could work. However most other theories would as well, a warnig could come from anyone.

2005-09-16 [hive]: since the memories of our ansesters are in our dna, then yes the warning could come from anyone, past present and/or future. but are they warnings if we already know them but just don't remember?

2005-09-16 [DanClark]: Of course... we know fire will burn us...but we still get warned.

2005-09-16 [Estantia]: 'can't live with them, can't live without' situation I feel...

2005-09-18 [hive]: lol, no dout, guess that applies to many of lifes problems.

2005-09-18 [Estantia]: however there are other things that also apply, i guess my favourite 'sod's law' is kind of like murphy's, only really fine tuned.

2005-09-19 [thoughtfox]: what does Sod's law state?

2005-09-19 [Estantia]: it varies depending ont he situation, but mostly it's "if you look ridiculous the person you like WILL see you like that" or "The thing you've been looking fo was right under your nose" etc, it applies to rather a lot of things.

2005-09-19 [thoughtfox]: Unfortunately so :(

2005-09-19 [nokaredes]: Oh! I heard a story once, about a girl who was ignored by everyone around her, and eventually she turned invisible because of it. That sounds like Sod's Law...sort of...

2005-09-19 [DanClark]: Sounds like Mystery Men.....

2005-09-19 [TheRogue]: LOL!

2005-09-19 [thoughtfox]: I remember hearing a supposedly scary story of a kid who was just ignored by everyone... then he was given the gift of stopping all other people around him by just saying 'stop'. He was busy plotting how to win a girl's heart and rob a bank when he said 'stop' - into a mirror.

2005-09-19 [DanClark]: Interesting... a kind of anti-social Midas touch....

2005-09-19 [Estantia]: sod's law isn't like that, it's basically life being spiteful...

2005-09-22 [hive]: the humeric laws of porality are simular to this, that in all things there must be a balance, if you belive you are beautiful then you are, you could belive yourself to be invisable and even though people could see you in your mind you would be, the mind is so great like that.lol

2005-09-22 [Estantia]: yes, the mind is an amazing thing indeed, anyone tried exploring their mind?

2005-09-22 [thoughtfox]: I've started. I got lost, but it's incredibly fascinating. I continue to try every night, but it gets exhausting...

2005-09-22 [Estantia]: how are you doing it? I created a mindscape, almost uinconsciously, or is the land my unconscious and the figure my conscious mind?

2005-09-22 [thoughtfox]: I just work through a mix of imagination and meditation. I picture myself exploring the vast universe within my mind, and i let images pop up - then i just play around with those images.

2005-09-22 [Estantia]: i use images for mine, taken from places in my poems and things around me.

2005-09-23 [thoughtfox]: Poetry, if done truly from the heart, should be an excellent way of exploring yourself.

2005-09-23 [DanClark]: It is believed that everything we need to know has already been taught to us, and that we need only remember how to do something.

2005-09-23 [Estantia]: that makes sense in some situations, and not at all in others, for instance knowing a place before you set foot in it, talking, kissing, they make sense.

2005-09-23 [thoughtfox]: And the sadness we feel when we hear of atrocities harming people we've never met, or animals as well shows the fundamental connection between all life.

2005-09-23 [DanClark]: Well you see..we are..and what if deja vu was just us skipping ahead in the general plan of life?

2005-09-24 [Estantia]: as I said before, a warning, or maybe we make the deja vu because we've seen it, it could be a sort of hint to keep us on track.

2005-09-25 [DanClark]: Exactly, or maybe a type of marker...to let you know where you are, or that you're on the right path...

2005-09-25 [thoughtfox]: precisely what i was thinking.

2005-09-25 [Estantia]: more like a hint to get on the right path.

2005-09-25 [nokaredes]: My deja vu usually involves missing the bus...especially if I ignore it. >_<

2005-09-25 [Estantia]: that's not good... but it gives you a chance to prepare if you're paranoid...

2005-09-25 [thoughtfox]: could it be perhaps that in attempting to avoid the prediction of a deja vu, we actually cause it to happen?

2005-09-25 [Estantia]: that's the same sort of issue as in macbeth, would he have become king if the witces hadn't said he would?

2005-09-25 [nokaredes]: And Oedipus...

2005-09-26 [DanClark]: And the vase in The Matrix...>.<...(sorry, couldn't resist!)

2005-09-26 [nokaredes]: ...We were all thinking it ;P

2005-09-26 [DanClark]: But on a more serious note...these things act as life markers..funnily enough you would expect them more often in the earlier part of life, and fewer once your path is clear...but what happens when you're so far off course that the little psychic 'nudge' is no longer enough to realign your life path? Any thoughts?

2005-09-26 [nokaredes]: Big psychic nudges? Like...near death experience.

2005-09-26 [DanClark]: yes...or any tragic/happy/life altering unexplained phenomenon

2005-09-26 [Estantia]: or an easily explained life changing event, for instance... all i can think of is a game example. There was a girl who hated technology and found it boring, but then her mother got caught in a machine, if it isn't stopped (by a later version of her) then the girl swear she will learn about machines so it will never happen again, if you save her then she learns so there can be no cances for accidents. If she didn't do that the whole adventure wouldn't have started.

2005-09-26 [Estantia]: and she wouldn't have gone back to change it.

2005-09-26 [DanClark]: Exactly..but then you need to ask why the second person's life was involved...did their life need that radical change too?

2005-09-26 [Estantia]: to be taught a lesson?

2005-09-26 [hive]: i belive some deja vu can be explained in quontum pysics, like being in two places at the same time, your future self may have been there or done the same thing you are experiancing so you acknowagle it because you did it already, not in the past but in the future.

2005-09-26 [DanClark]: not to teach them a lesson...but more to bump them back onto the right path too. And quantum physics...wouldn't that create a paradox? your future self would have needed your experiences in order to do what you were to have deja vu-ed; in which case you would also need to do what you have forseen without knowing you'd forseen it thus eliminating the deja vu...Just a thought.

2005-09-27 [nokaredes]: That always confused me with time travel...if you, say, learned everything about math and created a time machine, and used said time machine to go back in time and make it so you never learned more than Algebra or something, then the time machine would never exist and you would never have gone back in time, and you would then learn everything about math that you could and create a time machine. And it would just keep going like that...

2005-09-27 [Estantia]: yes, but i just think of it as a story, it makesw so much more sense to see a straight line and loop everyhting else arouund it...

2005-09-27 [0000----]: The same problem about going back in time is that if you for example kill your parents before they have you, then how could you even exist at all in the future...

2005-09-27 [DanClark]: Hence...the paradox....BUt then there is the 'Quantum Leap' principle...when you are only able to go back into the time in which you exist...that way you can't affect the events leading up to your birth...only the events after you're born.

2005-09-27 [Estantia]: or maybe before as long as you don't affect it. Of course there is the theory that everything you've done has already happened and caused the events in the first place.

2005-09-27 [thoughtfox]: so the question rises, how much control do we have over time? could it reflect destiny?

2005-09-28 [DanClark]: ...and if we have no control over it...is control just an illusion to make us believe that we have choices?

2005-09-28 [Estantia]: we do have choices though, and even choices which are fuelled from the same thing can have massive results, I saw someone who was basically me who had taken another path, however I found her a complete b**** until I realised and tried to be more accepting...

2005-09-29 [thoughtfox]: Yes, we do, to an extent, have choice. I chose to join Elftown. I chose to watch this classroom. I chose to not have breakfast this morning. But could it be that these choices are preprogrammed?

2005-09-29 [DanClark]: Why not?

2005-09-29 [Estantia]: as in the story is already written?

2005-09-29 [thoughtfox]: yes. everything is already mapped out for you. The choices you make are your choices, but in taking them you naturally kept to the plan.

2005-09-29 [Estantia]: someone predicted ever move we made, or we change so that's the choice we will take. Maybe.

2005-10-01 [hive]: perhaps the choices where made before your birth, perhaps you had the means to program your life and the choices before hand so that you could learn certain lessons, by putting yourself in certain situations and meeting certain people.

2005-10-01 [Estantia]: almost like the wiccans idea of a summerland, where we choose the lessons we learn in the next life (just to make it perfectly clear, I have no religion at present... but not an atheist...)

2005-10-06 [DanClark]: It is perfectly clear. I've looked at several religions..and I came to one conclusion: We are all unique, and as such so are our beliefs. If I wouldn't take offense to someone having blond hair, why would I take offense to someone's interpretation of 'God' or a higher being...or lack thereof?

2005-10-06 [thoughtfox]: DanClark, i agree with you completely! It's actually foolish to take offence or criticise other interpretations, because ultimately we don't really know anything. And yet, people make such a huge fuss out of religion

2005-10-06 [TheRogue]: The problem with organized religion is that everyone believes their belief is right. Most religions urge you to tell others and 'save' them from not being on some celestial 'list'. What happens is the believe so much theirs is the right path, they don't understand why you don't just fall in line with them, and get frustrated, and even belligerent. It is the reason so many people speak so badly about other religions, because as far as they are concerned, yours is damnation. It's pretty self-righteous to me, and while they may be able to point out flaws in your religion, someone else can easily point out just as many with theirs, but they won't hear any of that. ^_^

2005-10-06 [TheRogue]: fanatics tend to be somewhat close minded to anything that strays from their religious path. Even to the point of rediculousness. When they can't answer a question, they respond in one of a few ways: 'GOD is mysterious and works as such', or 'read your bible', or 'ask GOD'. They don't mind condemning your belief, but far be it from them to actually have answers to back up their damnation. It is very frustrating for me. I have found a path I am comfortable with, and it deals only with my sense of GOD and myself. Nothing else. No hairless monkeys trying to sell me vacuums... no revivals or whatever.. My place of worship is within my heart and not withing a building or gathering.

2005-10-06 [Estantia]: nicely put. and i think i may go the same way, but you have to be registered as something... I'm down as C of E, but I'm not as suuch...

2005-10-06 [thoughtfox]: Round of applause for TheRogue. That's brilliant. What's worse about fanatics is they actually take their religion so far they distort it until its meaning is lost. And i also agree with you - i just told my friend today that i don't go to synagogue at all anymore because i don't see the point in going somewhere to pray in a language i don't understand well enough at a pace too fast for me. I'd rather sit at home and pray through writing poetry - because then i can truly feel that i'm speaking to divinity.

2005-10-06 [thoughtfox]: And Estantia, why do you have to be registered to something? i choose specifically to be completely unregistered. I will tell people that I'm culture-creative and take aspects from all religions. They do not need to know that i'm from a Jewish family, nor that i follow Hindu philosophy. In fact, thinking about how politicised religion is nowadays, I honestly don't want to be 'registered'.

2005-10-06 [Estantia]: we have to be registered as somewthing until we change it or whatever... my local primary is c of e so...

2005-10-06 [TheRogue]: you should never be made to choose a religion to specify yourself. it is like being told you must choose a race, when in fact you cannot pigeonhole yourself to one aspect of race.. mexican indian, african puerto rican, chinese irish, etc.. they are wrong for making you proclaim a faction you do not support.

2005-10-06 [Estantia]: *shrug* I don't really care, it can say what it likes, I haven't a clue what I am so I may as well be it as anything else.

2005-10-06 [DanClark]: Funnily enough that this conversation has turned this way. A few years ago (2-4 I think) people in Canada during census were asked what religion they practiced as well as the standard requisits. Because some people found this to be an invasion of privacy, and the fact that with the internet things fly through at warp speed, being a Jedi is now considered a legal religion.....o.O  Legal Religion: Jedi Knight...only in Canada.......

2005-10-06 [Estantia]: ok, that is strange, but aren't those also the people that have the really unbiased law about pitbulls?

2005-10-06 [TheRogue]: woot! yay for Jedi Knights!

2005-10-06 [Estantia]: jedi! yay!

2005-10-07 [thoughtfox]: Are you sure it's Canada? A friend told me it was Britain! well, part of the Crown, i suppose..

2005-10-07 [DanClark]: It supposedly started in BC, and because more than 6% of the population said they were Jedis, it became an official religion.

2005-10-07 [thoughtfox]: Well, good for them, really... i heard that two of my friends also put themselves down as 'Jedi'. I'd also, unless there were reasonable ground for asking my religion, put down 'Why?!'

2005-10-07 [DanClark]: ...strangely enough...it IS a religion....you can find it on the web, and even become a Jedi priest...if you feel like it.

2005-10-07 [Estantia]: a priest, not a knight though.

2005-10-08 [hive]: strong am i in the force, but not that strong

2005-10-09 [Estantia]: *thinks of the duct tape quote*

2005-10-11 [hive]: since the "force" can be mesured both physically and spritually, is this like manifestation, would you be able to think your way out of a situation, and if so does this blow the destiny theroy away, or do they exsist simotaniously?

2005-10-11 [Estantia]: life is such a mess it porbably exists because it can't.

2005-10-11 [DanClark]: Destiny is like a river...one small stone will not divert it's course, but several can if they work together.

2005-10-12 [Estantia]: I see it as a wind, it drives you in a direction, but you can divert it, say by taking an offshoot to the main path.

2005-10-12 [thoughtfox]: No, the idea of the force is more sort of a magical "Matrix" idea. technically, as this physical "illusion" is made up of our collective consciousness, our thoughts do influence it, which is part of the reason why if you fear something, you may draw it to yourself. Of course, the ultimate reality cannot be changed (thank goodness) and so a set destiny remains.

2005-10-12 [DanClark]: Ok, This was (and is) an interesting thread. Let's take one aspect of this and answer a simple question. Is the human race born evil, and learns goodness; or is it good and becomes corrupted by the things around him/her?

2005-10-12 [TheRogue]: I believe everyone is born inherantly good, and through upbringing, and environment learns their own perception of right and wrong, good and evil, etc..

2005-10-12 [thoughtfox]: I don't know, i think both qualities are inherent in humans. We feel happy when we do good, but we also are competitive and greedy. It's just a matter of what decisions we take, and what we learn.

2005-10-12 [Estantia]: I think everyone is a mixture, because neither a complete saint or devil is possible, look up last stanza of 'Vultures' by chinoa achebe (i think) to see what I mean.

2005-10-13 [hive]: i think it maybe both aswell, like you may be born with goodness, but be brought up in a rough family, this doesn't mean you will grow up to be a killer, but you are more likely to, its up to that person, is that persons personality strong enough to get over and learn from its up bringing, or are they going to let it become a henderance and pray on others.

2005-10-13 [Estantia]: we're human, there is potential for anyhting, anyone can be a killer or saint to my eyes, but the paths they take limit those options, as do their personality, upbringing etc.

2005-10-13 [DanClark]: OK, so we can agree that we are not neutral and that our environment moulds us (even if only slightly) towards one or the other. How does spirituality factor in?

2005-10-13 [thoughtfox]: our actions and reactions have spiritual consequences. That's the whole notion of karma.

2005-10-13 [DanClark]: I agree they have consequences, but do they also have influence?

2005-10-13 [TheRogue]: (my humble opinion) Think of our actions like a lake; drop a pebble into the calm water (action) the effect ripples outward affecting the rest of the lake in one way or another, sometimes the effect reaches another place in which the ripple is sent back or out to another direction.