This 'discussion' can be found at christian and proud of it

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[Roccoriel]: What if you're wrong? What if there really isn't a God and he's just a fantastic creation of mankind? What then?

[Priest Kel]: "I would rather live my life as if there were a God and find out there isn't, than to live my life as if there weren't a God and find out there is." -David Long My best friend and preacher once told me that, and it always sticks out in my mind when people ask things like you just did.

[Peregrinus]: What you just said doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me, Kel. Why would an all-powerful God care if we have the hope of eterlnal life? If he had never created us in the first place, it wouldn't have mattered at all, now would it? So the question ends up being, why did God, who is perfect and all-powerful, create such an imperfect world full of imperfect creatures? And say he didn't create it as imperfect, but rather it was sullied by Satan. Why would God allow his perfect world to be tainted by evil? This argument seems to suggest that evil has some power over God. Could you concievably believe that?

[Peregrinus]: And as for you, Roccoriel, in however many years I've known you, you've never explained to me why you do not believe in a higher power. Care to enlighten me?

[Peregrinus]: And as for you, Roccoriel, in however many years I've known you, you've never explained to me why you do not believe in a higher power. Care to enlighten me?

[Roccoriel]: Lots of reasons, science, history, rationality, logic and personal experience all play a part. I've been studying more about religion and the more I learn the more I think it's completely ridiculous.

[Peregrinus]: Religion maybe, but that's not what I asked.

[Roccoriel]: Same answer.

[Peregrinus]: I think it's arrogant to say that there is no power higher in the universe than Man. Dangerous too.

[Radioactive Flea]: Rather closed minded if I dare say as well.

[Roccoriel]: I never said man was a higher power did I? Why on earth would I think that? And, Radioactive Flea, I would say it's just as close minded to regard your own faith as true and all others as false...arrogant as well.

[Priest Kel]: Why would God allow His perfect world to be tainted? Because He does not control our free will. The first sin was when Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, and since they made the choice and God does not control us like a puppet master, then we tainted this world. Why did He allow it? Because He loves us enough to let us make our own choices.

[Roccoriel]: He may love us enough to let us make our own choices but...if we make the "wrong" choice we are condemned to an eternity of suffering in hell. Seems more like some sick kid setting a sadistic trap than a loving father.

[Lord Kügenheim]: You see I don't belive Hell is an eternal suffering thing, for the exact point you just raised

[Roccoriel]. What kind of father would do that? No I don't think God would do something like that to us.

[Priest Kel]: And He doesn't, He only punishes you proportionate to your crimes against Him. And those wrong choices create a chain of events that normally is a bad thing in most cases and that's why they are the wrong choices.

[Lord Kügenheim]: In the Bible unless I'm very mistaken (which is probable) Doesn't it say "Eternal Damnation". Doesn't that mean forever?

[Priest Kel]: And Jonah also said he was in the belly of the fish "forever." Plus, the damning itself is eternal not the punishment.

[Pnelma Tirian]: If a king's son murdered another man and the punishment for murder was death, wouldn't the king in order to be just have to sentence his own son to the same fate?

[Priest Kel]: Christ said that He required mercy more
than sacrifice, but yes that would be the case I suppose

[Roccoriel]: If you know your history you would know that a king's son or prince rather would not suffer the death penalty for murder, merely a fine. Were the murderer of a lower class and had killed say, a prince, then of course the murderer would die. That's just the nature of ealry law. Also, on another note, Jesus said that the Old Testament was the word to be followed and that it was not to be interpreted. It means what it says.

[Priest Kel]: I never said that the kings of history
were just now did I? And Christ did say He didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill the law, but He did say that He required mercy more than sacrifice. Mercy, peace, and forgiveness is more desireable to God than killing. Who would be the better man: the man who avenges his brother, or the man who forgives the one who murdered his brother? And of course we suppose that this man loved his brother truthfully

[Ladyeternalflame]: I have heard that in the days of the ancient pagan Celts, the king was sometimes offered as a human sacrifice, or someone else of high birth was sacrificed in times of desperate trouble, like if there was a drought, famine, flood war, too long and hard winter, etc. Jesus the King of all creation sacrificed himself for us in order to save us from our sins and to give us eternal life. God loves us enough to die for us, when a lot of people refuse to acknowledge him. At church today my pastor's sermon was on forgiveness. He said we must forgive those who have wronged us if we want God to forgive us. Last Sunday he said that if we had done something wrong to harm somebody else, we should humble ourselves and go to that person and apologize. Forgiveness is important for Christians

[Roccoriel]: It might be now for most but it hasn't always been that way.

[Peregrinus]: It was that way originally. Medieval Catholic Christianity was not the "original" version of the faith, despite its prominance in Christian history. But then, you know that.

[Pnelma Tirian]: erm, that wasn't meant to be taken QUITE that literally, Roccoriel.

[Roccoriel]: no, that's what Jesus says, I can give you the verse if you need it. Anyways, Per, I never said it was, Judaism was actually the original version.

[Peregrinus]: Wow, thanks for that fact. I had no clue, truly.

[Roccoriel]: You were implying that you didn't know. *shrug* Anyways, I find Christianity amusing. It considers itself the truth faith and denies Judaism from which it began and then, amusingly enough, has now broken into so many different sects that Christianity as a whole proves by it's own varied existence that it's not the only true faith. How can Christianity be the "right" way when there are so many different forms of it?

[Peregrinus]: Well, think of it this way: both toyota and Audi make cars. Both companies make cars that run, but they don't make their cars exactly the same.

[Roccoriel]: See, that comment is more along the explaination of religious tolerance told to me by a Rabbi. Each religion is just a different relationship with God. None are more "right" than any others and everyone has some responsiblity to explore the faith they were born into but to also be aware of the faiths of others.

[Peregrinus]: Well, I personally don't believe that's all too untrue... but that's just me...

[Roccoriel]: You're unique.

[Peregrinus]: Darn toot'n.

[Child of God]: Christianity doesn't at all deny Judaism. Jesus himself was a Jew and no Christian would deny that. Our Old Testement is the same as the Jewish Bible, which is stilled used at sermons and adds to our faith. It is Judaism that gives Christianty such significance, since Christ came as a fulfillment of Judaic prophecies. Christianity amoung any other religion in the world affirms Judasim due to that fact. The different denominations of Christianty also give proof to the claim that it is the 'true' faith, since though the different demoninations may interpret it differently (and I'm not too fond of demoninations personally), they all follow the same Bible and have the same core beliefs. Those sects that deny the core beliefs, and/or add to the Bible cannot be considered Christian sects since they are not held on the core foundations of Christianty.

[Ladyeternalflame]: I agree with Child of God. But what about verses in the bible that are unfair or discriminate? For example, the New Testament says that women should remain silent in the church, and women should not have authority over or teach men. But a lot of denominations now allow for women to be ordained as ministers. I think the problem was women in the early church were talking while someone was trying to preach, disrupting the service. Paul wanted to make the church service orderly.

[Priest Kel]: That's correct actually Eternalflame. That's actually what it was, but also the curse that was stricken upon Eve, and all women kind, was that they would desire authority over the man but could never have it. That's why they are not to have authority or to teach men.

[~Rythem~]: ( Jesus wept ) although the shortest verse in the Bible it is the most powerful does anyone agree with me?

[Child of God]: I agree it is powerful yes

[Roccoriel]: I think that it just reflected the nature of the time. Any basic study of history would show that the way women were treated in regard to religion and the church was merely an extention of their role in society. Today, women have more rights in society and that freedom has been extended into the church very recently. It has nothing whatsoever with who talked during church. Please get your facts straight in future.Furthermore, I will argue that Jesus could not the messiah based on the bible itself. Jesus was a mortal human man with a human mother and father. He was a prophet, I won't question that, but holy, absolutley not. I'll start with how the Bible says to identify the Messiah: 1) Matthew 1:23 says that Jesus (the messiah) would be called Immanuel, which means "God with us." Yet no one, not even his parents, call him Immanuel at any point in the bible. 2) The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David (Romans 1:3 & Acts 2:30). Yet, how could Jesus meet this requirement since his genealogies in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show he descended from David through Joseph, who was not his natural father because of the Virgin Birth. Hence, this prophecy could not have been fulfilled. 3) Isaiah 7:16 seems to say that before Jesus had reached the age of maturity, both of the Jewish countries would be destroyed. Yet there is no mention of this prophecy being fulfilled in the New Testament with the coming of Jesus, hence this is another Messiah prophecy not fulfilled.

[Child of God]: Have you read Issaiah 53? It gives a description of the Messiah many leave out in their arguments. And Mathew 1:23 tells that the child is to be named Immanuel. If you'd like a full account of all 300 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus which prove He is the messiah please see Prophecies Fulfilled. I checked them all and confirmed them all myself, though you can check all 300 if you don't think that is true. Any aethistic Historian that Jesus fulfilled at least 50 of these prophecies just by the description of His birth, lineage, life and works, and death. They do argue that the Bible is only another religious book, but they will not deny that Jesus is the only person in history to ever fulfill all of the prophecies written about a Messiah in a religious book. And in reference to Issaiah 7:16, that was written at a time when the Israelistes were still in exile from being conquered by neighbouring nations. I believe he is refering to Assyria and Mesopotamia under Alexander the Great, though I will check that out Friday and get back on that one. In reference to his descent, it says that the Messaiah will be a decendant of David, of the household of David. Remember in that time that even slaves bought were considered part of the household. So Jesus did fulfill the Prophecy in being from the house of David, since Joseph acknowledged the child into his family line. I may also point out that you contradicted yourself in your argument.

[Priest Kel]: Think about this though: what is something that is common practice now but when Christ was born would have been considered a miracle? Ask yourself what it takes to create a human child and then think about where God decided to get the sperm for Jesus. Mary was a virgin yes, but that doesn't mean that Joseph wasn't biologically his dad. Plus, in order to be king rightfully, Jesus would have to be a blood descendant of David, and the first artificial insemination makes that possible.

[Roccoriel]: Or...how about this. Just like in ancient myths Mary was sleeping around and didn't want to tell Joseph about it. So, behold, an immaculate conception. Women did this fairly frequently in ancient times and, also, FYI, the first record of artificial insemination was in about 600 ad and had to do with a spoon and arabian horses.

[Priest Kel]: Yeah, those who disagree with Christ
being the Son of God often do attribute to the virgin birth being rape or otherwise. But faith tells me that the "history" that you're following isn't the truth.

[Child of God]: There are many things in life which can't be explained and require faith. Take Big Bang for example. Those who believe in Big Bang (even the most atheist scientist) require more faith than those who believe in Creation due to the fact that Big Bang disproves itself. The Bible is also the only 'Holy Book' ever written which does not contradict itself.

[Roccoriel]: Faith is simly beleif in something. Believing in something doesn't make it neccicarily true. Beleiving that Jesus is the son of God is no different than a small child beleiving in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. Furthermore, the bible is not the only holy book every written. The Torah was first, then the Bible and then finally the Qu'ran and those are only the holy texts of western monotheisms. And...it does contradict itself quite frequently. I found well over 100 contradictions. You can check them if you like. Biblical Contradictions

[Child of God]: It was never said that the Bible was the first Holy Bood ever written, since the Torah is the Old Testement of the Bible. It is the only Holy Book however, inwhich every prediction about a Messiah was fulfilled by one, historical person.

[Roccoriel]: How can you presume to argue that it is? Any educated person would know that it's not the only Holy Book. Consider, the Qu'ran is considered to be the word of God...as such, the books themselves are treated with greater reverence than even the bible. Furthermore, only Christians beleive that Jesus is the messiah. The bible itself provides evidence that he's not.

[Priest Kel]: I ask for such evidence in the form of exact scripture [Roccoriel]. Grant us scripture and verse if you are choosing to use the very foundation of our faith against us. And, faith is the hope for things unseen. It's quite different than simple belief, it's believing in something regardless of the fact that you can't see it yourself.

[Roccoriel]: I already have in previous posts but if that's not enough here's more. Jesus is False Sorry about the link but there are too many to post here.And Kel...your definition of faith is the same as beleif. Children will beleive in the tooth fairy even though they never see her.

[Priest Kel]: I thank you [Roccoriel] for your two wiki links. I shall have to look them over and defend my faith with what I have learned. What version of the Bible are you reading?

[Roccoriel]: Whichever one I can get my hands on. I've found that bible.com is a good source for most versions.

[Child of God]: The Bible itself provides evidence that he is the Messiah. Again, whether you believe in the Bible as the Word of God or not is irrelivent; the fact that Jesus fulfilled every prophecy in the Bible about the Messiah is indeed proof amoungst itself. No historian will argue against the existance of Jesus or His impact on history, even if they only claim He is a great moral teacher. This again, however, doesn't work since great moral teachers do not lie. If Jesus is a great moral teacher, then he wasn't lying when he said he was the Son of God. If He was lying, then he isn't a great moral teacher at all. And I too will be exploring your sites (once paper term and exams are done. Teachers can be so cruel sometimes! *cries*) Psychologist have explored every article perptaining to Jesus, whether it be from Josephus, the Bible or the Tulmuds (sp?) of the time which speak about Jesus, and have concluded that he held no sign of mental instability based on the information presented, which rules out the insanity plead. Then there is the case of the Ressurection, since if you can disprove the Resurrection then Christianity holds no solid ground. Everything about the Christian faith is centered on the Ressurection. A study was done at Harvard Law School by a professor (I will find his name for you once I'm done my papers), who was an aethiest, to disprove the resurrection of Jesus. After 5 years of study, based on the evidence proved, the professor could only rule that the Resurrection of Jesus did infact take place, with over 300 eye-witness to his Resurrection and multiple written accounts. (again, a more detailed version of the story will be avaible at The Proof once school slows down a bit and I can continue construction) I have also read some of your claims in Jesus is False and many of the claims I have read fall very short. For example I myself have delt with demons which cause paralysis, many people when they pray speak in tongues and healing does still take place all over the world. This largely does not seem to occur in North America though because North Americans hold to the belief that if they don't believe in it, it isn't real. Even more common is the belief that 'supernatural' occurances such as the laying of hands do not exist and are attributed to 'freaks of nature' rather than divine gifts.

[Roccoriel]: So then do you beleive in aliens, bigfoot and unicorns as well? People claim to have seen them but we have no substantial proof of them any more than we do demons.

[Priest Kel]: There is a difference between demons and the others that youv'e mentioned. How you ask? You don't have to see a demon to know it's there.

[Roccoriel]: Um...that's ridiculous. You know, during the Salem witch trials they thought (because they couldn't see them) that young girls were being possessed by demons (incubi-servants of witches) but, science revealed it to be in actuallity a halucinogenic fungus that grew on crops that the "possessed" girls had eaten.

[Priest Kel]: Those that can recognize evil will know and see the demons for what they really are. Demons are the forces that are at work attempting to destroy our very society. They are the ones that are nudging at every child saying that sex and violence is great and should be praised. Demons are the human side of man urging us to do that which is easy instead of that which is right.

[Roccoriel]: I think that just sounds like an excuse for stupidity, lack of common sense and selfishness. Why not stop making excuses and actually try solving the problem?

[Saulegraza]: What's wrong with sex? And there is tons of violence in the Bible, maybe you should read Exodus where God orders the killing of every man, women, child, and animal (except the virgins which were kept as booty). Seems like God condones violence all the time.

[Child of God]: I question as to how much both [Saulegraza] and [Roccoriel] know of Jewish culture and the Old Testement. Because many of the points raised are those done so seemingly without much knowledge of Jewish traditions, history and beliefs. If you are asking for proof of demons Roccoriel, look at the evil in the world around you. Do you have proof of love? No. You feel it so you believe. You don't need proof of it because you have your own proof. There is also nothing wrong with sex; God created sex. What is wrong is the way in which sex has been perverted. God created pleasure in sex, not sex for pleasure. As for the violence of the Bible, research Jewish history and see what lead up to those times and why God allowed the violence. He always explains why He 'condones' (and I use that word very lightly) violence. For some people, no proof you give them is good enough. "They will hear but they will not understand." "For it seemed but foolishness upon their ears." Some people have narrowed their minds and hearts so much that nothing we can do will reach them. If any of you are asking for proof, first ensure your eyes are open to see and your hears are open to hear. You look for a smack in the face when you are already recieving a tap on the shoulder. You look for wonderous signs, yet miss the mircles surrounding you. It is amusing how in an age of 'religious tolerance' Christianity is the only untolerated religion. Many accuse Christians of being narrow-minded and exclusive, yet it is the only religion in the world that requires only faith. Why is it that in our post-modernist world which scorns the past and has no hope for the future, are you so hostile to the hope presented? You say you are realistic, when really you are not! You cannot have darkness without light! No matter the situation, there is always hope! Whether you are blind to that hope, that light does not change the fact that it is there. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean it does not exist. Satan's greatest trick was convincing the world he did not exist! Western society are the only ones which do not believe in 'spiritual happenings!' We can believe in magic, divination, New Age, all of these mystical religions. (And no one even try to start on this topic because I used to be a Witch, so I do know what I'm talking about!) We can believe that we can cast spells, put hexs on people, communicate with the dead and see into the future, yet we cannot believe in a being who created us out of love? We cannot believe in a love so profound it took on death for us? How is it that the same people who are so open to these possiblities of mysticism so easily dismiss Christianity and what it teaches?

[Artsieladie]: Good point, [Child of God]! :)) Amen!

[Akayume]: @.@ wow, you're here too? ((wow...........)) *points at artsie_ladie*

[Priest Kel]: ^_^ I thank you [Child of God] for that wonderful defense against the atheistic arguement for not believing anything you can't see.

[Roccoriel]: How about having some faith in humanity then? Religion suggests that humans were made from dirt to more or less fulfill the whims of Yahweh, Allah or God. What about human free will to do both what is good and what is bad? I think it's rather frankly retarded to assume that people are good because God loves them and people are bad because they're being tricked by demons. No, I don't really like humans in general but I do think we are responsible for our own actions and are evolved from other life forms, not dirt.

[Child of God]: Even if you believe in Evolution (inwhich Macroevolution has, according to the Law of Probability, disproves itself) it states that micro-organism from which we supposivly evolved came from the same interstellar dust the Earth and the Universe was made of. So technically, whether you believe in Creation or Evolution, both say we came from dust in the beginning. As to having faith in humans, I point to the modernist period inwhich Individualism and the basic foundations of modernism arose. It is the most brutual in human history. Worse than the classical era, worse than the Dark Ages (inwhich the crusades took place if you try to use that argument). The modernist period inwhich people looked to themselves rather than God is the worst in all of history. Look at the French, Russian, German and Japanese Revolutions, the two World Wars, The Holocaust, The Cold War, The Korean War and those are just the international conflicts. We are responsible for our actions, that is what free will is called and why humanity fell in the first place. The difference is, in religion you are accountable not only during your life, but also after death. Free will is the very reason our world is in the mess it is! We've spent the last 700 years trying to do it on our own and look where we are. We don't assume people are good because God loves them and people are bad because of demons. We KNOW people are bad because they are fallen. It is because of them, not demons (though demons MAY play a role. Very seldom this is the case though it still occurs). People choose to follow the goodness God origionally created them with, or they choose to follow their fallen 'badness'; it is a choice which again is possible since God gave us free will. I actually have to give evolutionist credit though; they require more faith than creationalists!

[Roccoriel]: I don't how you can deny that evoltion exists and is *still* happening. For example, in the past 50 years through facilitated evolution (selective breeding), dairy cow numbers have been reduces to 1/3 what they were but those cows are producing 210% more milk on less feed. That's one drastic example of the power of evolution. All animals, plants and people on this planet are in a constant, visual evolutionary process. To deny it does't take faith, it takes ignorance. Fortunately that is chainging. The non-religious sect of people is the single largest proportion of growth in the last decade while the numbers of Christians in the US is actually declining. Furthermore, of religions worldwide Islam is the only one which is growing in substantial numbers.

[Child of God]: I am speaking of macro-evolution, not micro-evolution as was stated above. And that is not true; though Christianity may be declining in America, it is increasing world wide. The fact of the matter is that we could sit here and argue all day, spitting out statistics, scientific and histortical facts but it wouldn't matter. You demand proof yet your eyes are closed to any and everything presented to you. Those you don't wish to believe never will. No matter what happens, you will always deny it. Ask yourself this; what if you are wrong? If we are wrong, we've simply led a life based on love. If you are wrong, you've got an eternity to make up for it. We've got nothing to loose, you have everything to loose.

[Roccoriel]: I would argue the life based on love. I know more christians that live by a general edict of intolerance, ignoramce, racism and hate than I do that base their lives on love. If I'm wrong so what? I think of it this way, if I'm wrong I'll get to spend eternity in the company of some of the greatest minds that ever existed. Julian, Voltaire, Jefferson....the list goes on and on.

[Child of God]: If those you know do not base their lives on love, I would question if they are Christians and not some New Age sec which twists Christianity. I can see you have never read the Bible or else you would know that Christ's message, and God's gift of Christ, is based soley on love. Love is the very basis of our faith, and if these people aren't practise that, then they aren't following Jesus. Indeed, you would rather spend eternity in the Lake of Flames (Hell)? That is your choice but I can guarantee no one else in this wiki will be joing you. I feel sorry for you Roccoriel and you are in my prayers, since it seems that your heart isn't sure where it stands.

[Pnelma Tirian]: Iunno, this isn't on the same topic but I've never seen Hell as a place of flames, but as a place devoid of God's love, which is so much worse. I just wanted to say that, and I will be kindly backing out now.

[fireknight]: hmm numbers of growth comepared to numbers of members . I guess the other people are reproducing alot lately. Sry just a random comment.

[Saulegraza]: Actually [Child of God] have you ever read the Bible or Old Testament or taken a class over those? I have. I dont see how you condone violence as long as it is in the Bible, it is okay? As long as Christians or the Hebrews did it they were okay as they were doing it for God? And you are wrong- the religions of Judiasm and Islam also are based on faith. Maybe you should crack open a Qur'an and Torah. And I dont believe in hexes or voodoo or whatever, so you can subtract the everyone believes in those. And if you want to talk about Christians let's talk about Christians. I personally do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah for the simple reason that IN THE BIBLE the Messiah was suppoused to be named Immanuel, not Joshua, and that Jesus said that his second coming was going to be before everyone that was alive then died. He didnt so I have a hard time believing that he was the Messiah. Also, the Trinity seems polytheistic to me. Now onto modern day perspectives of Christianity: I dont like many Christians for the simple reason that you seem to think that your religion is the only way. In Muslim and Jewish faith, they believe that it is none of their business about your personal relationship with God. They believe that the End Times, God will be the only one to judge you, not your fellow persons. I have yet to meet a Christian who doesnt comment on personal matters of faith that are none of anyones business but myself and God. Also there is this little matter that I dont agree with the NT as it was written well after Jesus' death, at least 60-200 years after he died. Also there is this little matter called the Council of Nicea that choose what books to put into the Bible, not that God choose the Bible. Man put the Bible together, and Man translated it from Arameic to Greek to Latin and so on finally English. There are translation errors, and contradictions. And Child of God, sorry but Christianity is not growing world wide. Islam is growing at 3% a year- while Christianity is not growing at all. You can look it up on this site:http://www.wwrn.org/. And to answer your question about how this world is going to the crapper, what about the Civil Rights, women allowed to vote, and I dont see how a revolution against tyranny is bad? I personally think that the world is alot better place than it used to be- after all slavery has been abolished in the western world, women arent chattel anymore, black people, latinos, asians all have rights that are equal to whites. I dont see how that is not social progress.

[fireknight]: Hypacrite you talk about how you don't like christians for this and for this and for this and how you shouldn't judge. You are doing the same thing you dislike about Christian. oh and here let me get this outi n the open I'm a too, i'm a sinner I am lower then durt, so don't think all christian think the same way but don't hate others for the same thing you are.

[Saulegraza]: How am I a hypocrite? I answered her question
on why she thinks that everyone hates christians. I never said I judge her because of her beliefs, or her relationship with God. I dont believe I ever said you believe in Jesus you are stupid. And you should read [fireknight] I never said I hate christians... and spellcheck while you are at it as I can't get your last sentence.

[fireknight]: " I dont like many Christians" hmm that sounds. but my whole thing was you are talking baout hopw judgeing is bad and your here doing it. and how you don't like how Christians thank there way is the only way. we;; heres a gfect the bible says "none gets to the father accpt through me" so it looksliek they have the right idea. and last it makes you look veyr low when you make fun of a dyslexic person's spelling.

[Child of God]: I have taken courses on the Bible, I have read the Old Testement and the Torah and I am in the process of getting a copy of the Qur'an. I am also majoring in History with emphasis on Classical Studies and minoring in Theology, so I have read these. If you noticed, condone was in quotation marks, since the Bible doesn't condone violence at all. If you read the Bible and the prophecies and promises from a faith-based stand point and not a legalistic point, which it sounds like you are comming from. I could put up a huge argument on the legitamecy of the New Testement and how it is viewed as some form of truth from a historical perspective, we could sit and argue about the state of the world (which in general, is deteriorating at a faster pace than ever before in history on all levels, ask any history professor), we can continue to sit and make attaks on each other. I never said that everyone hates Christians; I merely pointed out the fact that Christianity, along with Islam and Judaism are amoung the most intolerated in the world and how ironic that is in a world of 'religious tolerance'. Any basic worldview course, or even history course, will demonstrate that. We (as Christians) are not here to judge anyone, that is for God alone. We are not called to judge but to spread the Word to others, that they may hear the message and make the choice. God will judge a person when they die as to what their choice was. But again to pose the question to every non-believer here; What if you are wrong? If we are wrong, we have nothing to loose. If you are wrong, you have everything to loose. We don't go to athiest wikis and condome and attack you, we don't go to Wiccan wikis or any of the sort and condem them so why do you attack us? It's fine to ask questions or make for a CIVIL discussion, but to verbally attack is another story. You make a statement or ask a question, we answer. If we know the answer, we are know-it-alls who think they are better than anyone else. If we don't have the answer, we must be 'bad Christians' or it's not all it's cracked up to be. Don't come in here with false statements about our faith and expect us not to refute them. Any Christian never claims to be perfect or close to it, nor do they claim it's an easy life. Imagine dealing with people like yourself on an everyday basis, in person, at work, school, on the street and on-line. Try failing a course for your beliefs or being called to take a stand against what you know is wrong against people who just think you are 'some poor person who needs religion to get through life.' We don't have to defend our faith, our faith defends us. We can give you all the proof you need (and in regards to your proof about Jesus not being the Messiah, it shows again little understand of the Jewish prophecies in the context they were written but that is a different discussion and it's too close to exam time to get into that. There is more proof than disproof for that statement) but you will always need more. People fear what they don't understand; is that why they get so hostile when it comes to religion, Christianity especially? We aren't hostile to you, yet you come in with a fire and brimstone attitude. Even the church learned decades ago that approach doesn't work. Christianity is not a religion, it's a lifestyle. We aren't called to just believe, we are called to put that belief into practise; to love our enemies, care for the sick, the cripple, the elderly, the orphaned, the widowed. We are called to show love to all, that they may see the love of Christ through us. Just as with any other path in life, Christianity is a journey where some may be further than others but the important thing is to be on that path. Are you trying to sit here and tell us that it is wrong to base our life on the teachings of love and forgiveness, which is what Christianity is? As I said, the basis of Christianity is love. Everything comes back to love; forgiveness, hope, promies, charity, etc., it all stems back to love. Are you trying to argue that a life based on love is intolerant and hateful? Right now there are only a few intolerant people on this wiki and they are not the members!

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