[Imperator]: Or until the Iraqi government is completely stable and we've won the war. The second part is already complete.

[Mortified Penguin]: We're the most powerful country on the planet. It's our duty to help out smaller countries like Iraq... and since we've already begun rebuilding over there, it would be idiotic for us to pull out now. We got rid of the old government, now we have to fix up the new one. What kind of people would we be if we just went over there, destroyed the government, and left?

[Imperator]: Romans. Which wouldn't be too bad either but liberals are always complaining about something they call ethics so they've basically called their own cut-and-run plan unethical...

[Doormat]: You completely missed my economy point. Reread.

[Imperator]: American economic problems don't stem from the war. It might play a small part becuase it increases the debt but that's already so high it barely matters anymore.

[Doormat]: Do you realize how much you've spent on the War in Iraq?

Let's just say a few hundred billions. 

[Imperator]: So? We're about to dump 700 billion into the economy because some bankers were greedy and that's had a bigger effect than a war that's been going on for years.

[Mortified Penguin]: Stupid bankers... gave out too many loans to stupid people... *eats ramen*...

[Doormat]: Wait a few years until you want to go to college/university, you may well be one of those stupid people with loans. 

That is, if there are any banks still around. 

Greedy bankers have little effect when all of America's energy and money is being poured into warfare. 

[Imperator]: Those loans were made to people that couldn't afford to buy a house, not college students.

All the banks that have collapsed are giant corporations that only do risky loans with big returns and they don't even do regular banking anymore. Regional banks are perfectly stable and safe. The companies that have gone down deserved it.

If the banks have no effect, then why are they having a massive effect?

[Mortified Penguin]: If America's economy collapses, the rest of the world's will as well. Great Depression II! ...*eats ramen*... and do you know what got us out of the first depression...? ...a good ol' fashion world war. So do you know what we're going to have to do if the economy fails? That's right! WWIII! ...I can't wait!

[Doormat]: Ever hear of student loans? Also, do you know how rare it is for people to actually throw down the few hundred grands to purchase a house? Mortgage and loans are often the only choice. 

I'm sure you'll be drafted. America is too weak from Iraq to pull off another war. That is, unless they want world scorn by attacking Iran or suicide by attacking North Korea. The world's economy doesn't depend on America either. 

[Mortified Penguin]: If I'm drafted, I wouldn't mind too much. And the army isn't weak at all... we've got plenty of soldiers still in reserve over here. And yeah, the world's economy would crumble if the U.S.'s did.

North Korea isn't on our hitlist anymore. Even if they were, we could destroy them pretty easily...

[Imperator]: Strangly enough, I have heard of student loans and I fully understand that few homes are paid for in cash however the loans that were made were made to people that knew they couldn't afford it and the banks knew they couldn't afford it and sometimes the banks even lended 150% of the cost of the home with no down payment at all. Pure greed.

Please avoid pretending you understand something that you clearly don't. Stock markets around the world are falling just as the U.S. stock market falls. Tell me they aren't linked.

And [Mortified Penguin] is right again. The U.S. easily has the strength to crush Iran and now N. Korea is cooperating with the U.N. nuclear watchdog. You shouldn't listen to all your biased sources so much because they're clearly underestimating America.

[Doormat]: I'm sure nuclear warfare is on the top of the list of things wanted, but then again you two have a few years to become less ignorant, or not. 

It's not that the army is weak, it's the couple thousands that die there. It can be you or anyone. 

I don't see our economy crumbling over here. Sure tuition has gone up a few hundred (~$5000 for the year), but that's nothing compared to the US $10000+. Maybe war funds can go towards education? 

But as long as the US is the "World Police," that's not going to change. 

[Imperator]: Thank you for avoiding nearly every argument I made and proving me right. As for nuclear war, the only nation that might actually do such a thing is Iran so all the more reason to destroy them first.

[BarleySinger]: well [Imperator], as for Nuke war, the USA is the only nation in the world to EVER use them on anybody (WW II) which is WHY so many nations want them. Outside of the USA, nobody anywhere really trusts the US government. I no longer live there, so I hear it a lot (with my accent).

As for the economy...I am a bit older than many folk here, so I have a longer perspective on things. The economic crash in the USA (the popping of the housing bubble) happened because that bubble was 'floated' as a bandage to the economy that Reagan screwed up. The federal reserve did it as an attempt to keep the country from utter collapse. 

Back in the 1980s, Reagan (who was so messed up from senility that he BELIEVED that the movies he was in were REAL LIFE) ran up a huge debt in millitary arms, trying to 'out arm' the USSR in an arms race to make them go broke.

The USSR was (in fact) doomed to fail at roughly the same time regardless of Reagans spending spree. They couldn't even manage to move food by train from the farmers to the people. That was rather well predicted. 

However (despite facts to the contrary) the vast majority of 'neocons' today are STILL certain that THEY brought down the USSR...in the same manner of "delusional certainty" that the Taliban today has when they state that a few hundred of their opium stoned religious nut "soldiers" stopped the USSR's war on Afghanistan (they didn't...it was the funding from the USA that got them trained and armed). Besides, that invasion was always doomed. It was their version of Vietnam. Afghanistan had been at war (mostly 'gorilla' fighting' ) for many hundreds of years before the USSR showed up looking for a deep water port.

Anyway, the "housing bubble" started with the creation of a large amount of fake money in the federal reserve computers. They didn't even bother printing "funny money" in the manner they did for all that cash that disappeared in Iraq. The result (as expected) was that all the real paper money was worth less, inflation spiraled, there were a lot more homeless...and they just kept pumping up that bubble (Greenspan was in charge of the fed back them) every time the economy looked like it was finally going to adjust back to reality and crash for a while.

Eventually, the deregulation that Reagan did on the investment and banking world took its toll and people took advantage of how greedy they could be and get away with it, selling houses to anybody who had 'a pulse'.

However the actually economic downturn WAS going to happen and would have been much smaller if it had been allowed to happen back in 1989.

Thank you Ronnie for screwing the entire world.

-- and --- [Mortified Penguin]:

WWII 'helped' the USA get out of the depression, with very large (worse) economic effects in the long run (standard war footing economy...see also "1984"...which is why the US has tried so very hard since then to contrive a new enemy each time people stop believing in the current one. BUT...the largest factor in that recovery from the depression in the USA was the massive NEW DEAL infrastructure projects, the building of roads and damns and power plants (etc) which creative huge numbers of jobs and put money into the pockets of the poorest people (the laborers)...and those people HAD to spend that cash on food immediately, so the money did not sit stagnant, and when that money started moving around it got the economy moving again. Before that, many people had gone back to bartering for food (you know the sign..."will work for food").

The very same thing has been done for THIS economic crash all over the world today (except in the USA of course). Money was put into average peoples hands...except in the USA where it went to the bankers of course... which is why the economy here in Australia is so very good right now.

[BarleySinger]: Oh yes...and [Mortified Penguin]:...have you ever heard the myth of "The White Mans Burden"? Your ideas about the duty of the USA toward Iraq sounds very reminiscent of it. 

The White Mans Burden included helping all those 'poor non-white savages', who were poor because everything they used to have was stolen by westerners during European colonization.

IRAQ used to have a democratic government. Their democratic government was overthrown by the USA, who put Saddam in as the State Department's man (stooge) in Iraq. The US armed, funded and trained his soldiers and torturers...and supported him during ALL the horrible things he did. A big piece of Saddam's job (as stooge) was oppressing all the political groups who were interested in socialism, and all the ethnic groups that wanted an Islamic state.

The fact is that the US government put lots of horrible people into office all over the world, often just to get rid of democratic leaders whose only 'crime' was to treat the USSR and the USA in the same manner...as foreign nations. After the fall of the USSR, they started going round the world, declaring war on the dangerous people they had put into office (trying to clean up the mess made by 100 years of very bad foreign policy).

[Mortified Penguin]: The New Deal didn't work. It wasn't what caused the economic recovery. It only served to make things worse.

And 'The White Mans Burden'? I'm not even white though! I'm Mexican (and yes, I do support Arizona's new law).

As for that second bout of idiocy, what's your point? Are you saying we shouldn't have stopped Saddam? We were just cleaning up our mess. Would you rather he still be in office? Bush was actually man enough to put a stop to one of America's old mistakes. He should be praised for his excellent leadership.

The money did go to the bankers, yes. And most of the bankers are Jewish. And Obama's administration (the majority of which are Jewish) bailed the bankers and companies out. All while the media (controlled by the Jews) has been making us think this is all okay. Am I saying the Jews control the world? Maybe. Am I saying the holocaust never happened? Sure, why not. Am I saying the Jews are responsible for the unnecessary murder of thousands of Palestinian men, women, and children? Yes I am! But that doesn't really have anything to do with Bush...

Also, did you know that Bob's Diner is having a sale on half-eaten shoes? Dipped in the finest pesticides available at Wal-Mart, these shoes are not only delicious, but also healthy! Probably. We weren't able to finish the product testing, because our subjects kept mysteriously dying.

[BarleySinger]: Well [Mortified Penguin] OH MY FUCKING GOD. You're one of those ZOG nuts. You are not worth responding to as you are either : a troll, a nut, or too ignorant to bother with. I have better things to do with my time that respond to any of those. Oh well..You can lead a horse to water, but you can't give it opposable thumbs.

[Mortified Penguin]: Do you really? Or is it that you can't respond to any of those? As for being a 'ZOG nut', you can't really be telling me that the government isn't run by Jews, can you? It's quite obvious that it is. I didn't say it was a bad thing though. There are much worse groups that could be in control.