Previous Proof Discussions
These are previous discussions/debates from the wiki. Feel free to read them if you are interested. If you would like to restart a discussion that is here, please message me and I'll arrange that on The Proof. Otherwise, enjoy. Any other questions and feel free to message me, [Child of God]
Roq: I know all who have heard from me are going to roll your eyes, but hear me out. First: The Passion of the Christ, while accurate in it's portrayal of events, failed to acknowledge Christ's ethnicity: Middle Eastern. Jesus was not caucasion. And to [
Child of God]'s comment, how do you know of the battle? What finite proof is there, as this is the wiki for "the proof"?
Jagwire: just trust her man there is some really unexplained stuff going on every day."there are some things that can only be explained if there is a heaven and a hell, and there is..." a quote take from the movie Fallen, one of my personal favs i might add.
Child of God: There is no proof for the battle, since that type of proof would have to come from some type of Science right? Like I said, I know little to nothing about science, especially metascience or metaphysics, but I do know that science and technology is no where near advanced enough to attempt in either proving or disproving the spiritual world or any occurance in the spiritual world. But, if you really are looking for some round-about truth for it; since this wiki is designed to prove, historically, that Jesus existed (and by the way, I'm sorry I really haven't posted anything just yet. My profs have been overloading us since the first day but I hope to have some stuff up by Thanksgiving) and was who He claimed to be, that is the Son of God, that must mean that what He said was also true since whatever is said is divine right? Jesus tells us about the battle in the spiritual world and tells us how to defend ourselves against the enemies. So, if you prove Jesus is the Son of God (again using only historical means), you prove the existance of God, the validity of the Bible and therefore the truth of what the Bible tells us. So there is a round-about way of proving it, but no really clear-cut means. Does that help with anything or does that just make it worse?
Jagwire: my head hurt now :S lol just jk, ya i get ya
Roq: But back in that time period, it was not uncommon for people to claim divinity; Jesus was powerful and persuasive due to his charisma. He had followers, disciples. As far as proving things, I cannot disprove ANYTHING. One cannot disprove divinity or even that a rock is solid. However, they can PROVE the rock is solid.
Child of God: Actually, it was very uncommon for historically real people to claim divinity, especially within the Jewish community. The Jews were extremely devoted to their religion, and if one of their own had even murmured anything to claiming to being divine without proof, they were executed for treason under Jewish, not Roman, law. The Romans allowed the Jewish to carry on with their forms of law so long as it didn't interfer with Roman law. Jesus was the only person at the time period within the Roman Empire (which was the known world) who claimed divinity rather than divine inspiration. The Roman Emporers were created into Gods after death by the people, but they themselves did not claim to be God and the Eyptian practise of the divine monarch Pharoh had died out with Cleopatra (even she didn't really claim divinity). So Jesus was the only one of His time period to claim that, again, in the known world. Perhaps people in the Asian countries were, but that would be irrelevant since common people didn't know the existence of a world outside the Roman Empire. You have to remember what culture Jesus was in; not only a Roman Culture but a Roman-Jewish culture. Even within Roman culture to claim divinity meant punishment, because, like Greece, the Roman Empire was founded on City-States. Each city-state had a God or Goddness to whom they were affiliated with. Even during the time of Plato and Aristotle, right through to the reign of Constantine the Great, though the Romans tolerated other religions and sometimes intergrated them, they did so as long as it didn't jepordize the relationship between the city and the reigning God/Goddess. Alexander the Great did claim divine parentage, but that was through a long geneological (is that even a word?) line, whereas Jesus claimed to be the One and Only Son of God, a direct parent line. Jesus' geneology is given to prove that he came from the line of David, which comes from the Seed of Abraham, fulfilling a handful of about 300 prophesies of the Old Testement,or Tora. Now, even if you were to argue that the Old Testement is only fictional, the fact still remains that all of the books of the Old Testement were written hundreds, some thousands of years, before Jesus' birth. The fact that Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies in His life, over 100 of which He had no physical control over, gives Him a huge reliablity account. The Jewish Bible and the Christian New Testement are exactly the same, save for the name and arrangement of some of the books. The prophecies are still the same, the writters and what is written so one can not even argue that the Old Testement was re-written by the Church and/or early followers of Jesus in order to make it appear that Jesus had fullfilled these prophesies. A study was done by a mathmatician and 100 of his students to see what the probablity of fulfilling just 8 of the Old Testement Prophocies by accident, or them being fulfilled coincidently and came up that the chances of fulfilling just 8 in his lifetime by accident was about 1 in a trillion. (I'll find the institute were this study was done so you can check it out yourself if you don't believe me. Just message me and let me know but it will take a while to find) Once I get the history page done, there will be a link where you can see all 300 prophecies that were fullfilled so you can check them out for yourselves if you want.
Atmostrata: One must see one thing: NO ONE WILL DIE FOR A LIE THEY MADE UP! You can look at that today. People will buy bargains to be off the hook at court, in exchange for telling the truth. If someone is sentenced to death for a lie, they will make it straight, in an attempt to plea for their life. Jesus and His disciples and His current believers are willing to die for the truth, just as He did on the cross. Everyone would know that no one will die for a lie. It's human nature, always has been.
Jagwire: i totaly agree with you Atmostrata. if it was all a bif farce then he would of given himself up as he hung there, but he didnt instead he clung to his word tht he was the son of god. nad ya y would u die if ur jsut living for a lie... unless u think tht it really is the truth??
Child of God: Not only that, but if Jesus was just a myth, if His works and wonders where nothing but hoaxes why was the first church erected only 15 years after His death? Ask any professional and they will tell you that it is impossible for such a following to occur so soon after the leaders death. Christianity spread so widely that in a matter of 50 years Roman officials had to begin 'contaiment' of this new religion. It's unheard of in any other religion, including Islam. Any person will die for their belief if they believe in them strong enough, just look at the persecutions of the Muslims and Jews during the Medieval Ages, Renaissance and Reformation. Jesus was the only religious figure in history who, not only lived everything He preached (which by the way, no other historical figure has ever been able to do) but died the most gruesome, degrading and painful death known to the Roman Empire. Even if He had been insane enough to die that death believing He was the Son of God, His followers (who had died and forsaken Him at His death for fear of being discovered and put to death as well) would not have so miracuously been changed in the span of what? A few weeks? Maybe a month or two? Almost all of the Apostles died the death they feared, preaching the very message and person they renounced only a short time earlier. Their greatest fears came true, yet they embraced it with open arms as did so many of His followers later on.
X.x.XBroken BeautyX.x.X: Hey [
Child of God] I like this wiki you made here, I'm a fellow Catholic as well. But the thing is, we don't need to prove anything. If u believe in Jesus Christ, if you believe that he really did die for u and your sins(which I believe he did) than you don't need to prove anything, because us as Christans/Cath
olics know it happened, but don't need to prove anything. As for [Jagwire] and [Kurai Tenma], if this was such a lie, than why is it one of the most largest and oldest reiligon known to man? Just look at it, B.C. What's that stand for? Before Christ. Nearly all the History books use that term, and we know History exists, so Jesus must've too. Keep up the good work [Child of God], spread the word.
Here is an ongoing debate I am having with another member in the March of the Jesus Freaks. It's theology, so it doesn't have much historical information or proof, but it may prove interesting for anyone who wants to check it out.
Theology Debate
Yet another debate on christian and proud of it for those interested. Theology Debate2
Shadow Alpha: do you gather physical evidence or just recite stuff from the bible(which isnt evidence.anyone could of wrote it.that falls under faith.)
Child of God: I gather non-Christian historical evidence which supports the Bible. Also, as historical evidence the Old Testement after the Pentitook (sp?) is considered by many academics as legitamite evidence. If you would like clarification/proof on this please see the The Proof Works Cited for a list of the books I have used.
Shadow Alpha: historical text is one thing,what i mean by evidence is physical objects you can touch and observe,a burial site or something along those lines?ironiclly enough you dont have much proof to offer.and besides that,how on earth can you prove he did crazy and impossible things like coming back to life 3 days after death,or turning water into wine?there is simply no way to possibly prove that.if there was then everyone would be having the "evidence" crammed down their throat by christians.and your links provide nothing but words from other people who dont have any proof either.there is no tangible evidence what-so-ever.religion survives off of faith and nothing more.there is no "logic" involved.
Child of God: Shadow, I would ask that you take your stance and state it firmly now being either in the philosophical or scientific side of the debate. As stated many times over, I am not a science major, I am a history and philosophy major and therefore will only entertain discussion within that realm since I don't know enough of the scientific debate to give it credibility. For history, you rely largely on historical accounts, texts, etc. Archeology proves whatever historians account from these. You ask for a tomb, one is given and the site has supposedly been preserved (after exams I will do more research on this to confirm it. I had read it in a journal I subscribe to and sometimes publish in.) You are right when you say we can't prove Christ rose from the dead three days later. But we can prove that 3 days later the tomb was empty. Jewish talmuds report this, Roman records report this in addition to Biblical accounts. We know that the Jews wouldn't have stolen the body for fear of making Jesus a martyr. The disciples couldn't have stolen the body based on the abridged facts that a) they didn't expect Jesus to rise again. The Bible clearly tells us that the disciples had given Jesus up for dead and had read to their previous lifestyle. b) If you wish to entertain the idea that the disciples stole the body you must bear in mind two facts: 1) The soldiers gurading the tomb must have either left their post or fallen asleep. Either scenario means death for soldiers in the Roman army. 2) the boulder used to seal tombs weighed on average about a ton. Even if the remaining eleven apostles had somehow overcame the soldiers or got close to the tomb somehow, that would mean only eleven men were trying to move a 1,000 pound rock with a Roman seal on it, bearing the penalty of death if the seal was broken. c)There was no purpose for them to steal the body, as Jesus had died a criminal's death . (If you'd like a greater elaboration on this please tell me). Also, we have over 300 different eye-witness accounts of Jesus appearing to people after His ressurection, many important people mentioned as witnesses, some of which were recorded by both the Jews and the Romans. I can see you are an empiricist my friend, and that we have a classic case of Kant vs. Hume in your argument. As a historian, we look at facts like these and make connections. Many times, archeology hasn't caught up enough with historians to follow the same route, and so any historian can only go on what they are given. I'm sure if you go to your library you will find tons of books on these issues, as many people make it their life's work to either attempt to prove or disprove Christ.
Shadow Alpha: my stance is that this is all non-sense if you cant provide tangible evidence,and is basiclly just taking a book's word for it.if you have no REAL proof,then the arguement is useless unless your already christian and already believe in it.which makes this just another little project to give christians a chubby. Please tell me what constitues a eye-witness acount of jesus?how do they know its jesus?and better yet,how do you know they are telling the truth? how do you confirm authenticity of records for a jesus of nazarath being executed?and even if there was,how do you prove his inhuman powers?logic is against you,if you wanna get anywhere physical evidence would be a miracle. Not some 2000 year old records of questionable origin (how do you know your jesus was the only jesus around at the time?i could name 3 people i know named jesus right now.)
Child of God: The same way authenticy is proved for any historical record. No academic historian, religious or secular, will deny the existance, the impact or the death of Jesus. And again I ask you to state if you are arguing purely from a scientific perspective or from a philosophical one. As stated, I do not engage in scientific debate on the topic since I don't know enough about it. If you wish to discuss historical and/or philosophical aspects I would be happy to comply though I do ask that we move this to the discussions page to prevent clogging here on the main page if you don't mind.
Cia_mar: may i contribute here too? [Sedition] you said..."my stance is that this is all non-sense if you cant provide tangible evidence,and is basiclly just taking a book's word for it.if you have no REAL proof,then the arguement is useless unless your already christian and already believe in it...." can i ask then... do you agree with evolution?
Beyond Tenor: I'm going say mine like this... I'm a christian. I'm a preacher. The evidence is in my heart, soul and life. But... We have two fish swimming in the water. A young one askes the old fish, "What is water?" The old fish replies, "It's what you are swimming in right now. It's what you have to breathe to survive. Without it, you would die." The young fish perked up, "But I can't see it. I can't touch it. I have no proof that it's really there." The old fish answered, "And you never will." So... I ask you, this: you believe in air. You can't see it. You can't touch it. You have no proof that it is really there. You never will. Yet... you trust someone to tell you what it is. Why is that? And to say one thing about this (how do you know your jesus was the only jesus around at the time?i could name 3 people i know named jesus right now.) [Sedition], Jesus is the shortened form of Joshua, which was not used prior to that time. He was the only one. Now, languages use that name as well, most in replace of Joshua, like the Spanish Jesús. I would know this, because I am named Joshua and researched this vastly. He was indeed the first person named Jesus. It was not a popular name, and no one reused it out of respect until recently. That's how we know that all records reading Jesus for that time period belong to our Master. You want some physical evidence. Okay, how about this.
Cia_mar: that is true... [Kurai Tenma] ... in conjunction with my question about whether [Sedition] agrees with evolution... ther is no tangible proof that it is fact... yet many people accpt it as fact... however there is more physical evedence that the Bible is accurate and factual than there is concrete proof that evolution is even a valid theory!
Beyond Tenor: In Africa, AIDS is a huge problem. There is no cure, correct? Then explain to me, why people who stay in prayer and worship for Jesus Christ for days straight, ask to be healed... the next day they'll do bloodwork... and AIDS is gone. They have proof that is was there from previous bloodwork, multiple times. Multiple times after, they are healed from it. Explain how some Christians have the power from God to heal, and they can touch a lame, put strength in the legs, through His name? The blind see, through His name. Deaf hear, mute speak. It happens through His divine power.
Cia_mar:</b> yes and those are documented physically tangible proofs of the power that Jesus told us in God's word that we would be able to do through His name!
Beyond Tenor: I was trying to catch that crippled man. Did he come past this way? He was rushing home to tell everyone what Jesus did today. And the mute man was telling myself and deaf girl he's leaving to answer God's call. I know it's all hard to believe, but if you don't trust me just ask the blind man He Saw It All. That's the chorus of a song written about a true event. It didn't happen long ago either. In the name of Jesus, miracles still happen.
Cia_mar: amen!!!
Beyond Tenor: I agree [Cia_mar]! If the world would open their eyes for one second...
Cia_mar: unfortunately people want to see God in their own way.. at their own convienience!... after all "if there was someone to be accountable to for all that we do then we wouldn't do most of it in the first place... so let's just Not believe in that one who judges the quick and the dead and live how we want..".. people who live that way are going to wake up to a big surprise in the end!
Beyond Tenor: Yeah, I know. But, they have us to help pry those eyes open!
Cia_mar: yes they do... now if they would just listen to what is plain before them.... i know the bible says taht they will not understand becaust they do not have the Spirit of God to help them understand... but i also know that there is something in each of us that is longing to be filled and although we all at one time or another have tried to fill it with the things of this world.. none of those things satisfy and so only the word and true belief and trust in God can fill us!... after all....all who call upon the Lord shall be saved!!!
Beyond Tenor: exactly. None come to the Son save the Father draw him.
Cia_mar: now... why is it that those who start these discussions never seem to participate after i join...is it me???.*sniffs for body oder*...lol....
Beyond Tenor: lol. nah. give it time. People do that to me too. Normally because the response they do give is, "I can't answer that."
Shadow Alpha: evolution is in fact a theory,and is regarded as such by the scientific world.what makes it more credible then creationism is evolution is based off of actual observations of how creatures change over periods of time.all creationism does is say "god did it" and as for the arguement of air's existence.there is proof of it's existence becuase you can infact interact with it in a observable way by mixing it with particular gases or chemicals such as blood and carbon gases.you guys are ridiculous and use philosophy to support your claims instead of scientific examination.you cant really prove diddly in the bible actually happend.your taking some 2000 year old book's word for it becuase you were raised to.asking me to prove god doesent exist is like me asking you to prove santa doesent exist.the burden of proof is on the positive,not the negative.absence of evidence is evidence in favor of the negative,which is me.
Cia_mar: evolution is based off of actual observations of how creatures change over periods of time.all creationism does is say "god did it"...... tell me...what real evedances have these scientists observed?... did they see the supposed first creature that fore went its gills for lungs? have they found any evedance that shows that there is a link between each of the species taht we obseve today face to face? can they watch evolution hapen? no of course not because according to them it need time... alot of it... and so they cannot see it yet they believe it....if the watch had a designer and a computer needs a programer and the paining needs the artist... this pattern would suggest that all of this world in all it's intricate workings needs a creator
Shadow Alpha: you should do your research on how the process works.unlike christians science doesnt say that things are done by god waving a magic stick at things.the basis of evolution within a species lies with it's parents.evolution is observable in humans as well.through inherited genetics we pick up new traits with different effects from our parents,either for better or worse.over time species adapt to their environment or die off.humans are frail and physiclly incapable of killing many creatures by hand,so our brains were developed to allowed group tactics similair to how ants work together to take down large prey.nature refined this ability until we arose to the top of the food chain. if it were not for adaptation we would have died out rather quickly as the planet's enviornments changed.the same goes for all creatures on this planet.its called natural selection,you either adapt or die out. Evolution doesnt give an awnser as to how the universe starts,so dont insinuate such.evolution is simply the theory of species on this planet biologiclly altering over time to adapt to a constantly changing environment. and by the way,this is off topic.if you want to discuss evolution talk to me in PM.the discussion here is the existence of your jesus. which brings me back to the point of credibility.you say that there are records indicating jesus's execution by the romans.may i ask were exactly are these records?i would love to see the stone palett it was etched on and see carbon-dating test performed on it.
Beyond Tenor: Now you hold it one second... The still haven't proved that air is there... Lol. They say it's dense and what not, but they have no tangible evidence. Tangible means you can touch it and see it. Last time I checked you can't. You see dyes that are inserted into the air, that's all. As far as evolution, you're wrong. If they had proof of it, then they could say how the monkey was changed into a person. They would be able to tell you where that missing link is. They can't. They agree that it isn't there. They would be able to say how the gills turned to lungs. No animal have needed to do that, because of natural selection. That is true, natural selection exists. But, natural selection is not evolution. Evolution is the changing from one being to another that is completely different. And believe it or not, that does help to prove Jesus, because everything is compromised of atoms. Atoms are made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Do you know what these are made of? I bet not. You'll say they are the basic blocks when in fact you are wrong. These are nothing more than sound. That IS proven scientific fact that scientist world-wide agree on. What does the Bible say? God SPOKE everything into existence. So, that naturally means, the Bible is correct in sound being the origin. Last time I checked, there were spacing and rules for grammar for a reason. And, no, you won't find a stone palette, smarty. It has an 'E' on the end, just so you know. They used parchment by then.
Shadow Alpha: your innability to pay attention astounds me.i say evolution had evidence.evidence is information that helps the credibility of a claim or idea.proof is profound evidence that beyond a doubt concludes the legitamacy of a theory in repeatable examinations that will conclude the same result in a manor that turns something that was just an idea before into undeniable truth. evolution is called a theory for a reason.no one said it was an absolute truth,though christians have gone out of their way to use it as a target for their anti-intellectual movement. wtf?since when were atom's sound?sound is not matter you ignorant fundi.sound is vibration that can be interpreted by the brain to produce different effects.how on earth can you call vibrations matter?were on earth is your evidence you nut case?
Beyond Tenor: Then, if you are calling evolution a theory, then you cannot use it as a way to prove us wrong. Next object of "proof" then. Lol. Call me a nut case all you want. I'm not going to tell you. Then you'd just write it off. You want to know, you look it up. That's how you learn. But, science has proven that they are concentrated sound waves, that are so intertwined with the same purpose, that they stick together and form matter. Gold for instance, is simply sound waves that are so focused on being gold properties, that they have fused together, and given you an object to hold and see. Want some easy hands-on proof that you can do right now? Knock on something, wood, with a spoon. Then, knock --on something different, something metal. Then knock on a different material again. You'll soon see what I mean. It's because of this that everything has it's own resonating frequency, it's own timber. This is my stronghold, sound.
Cia_mar: it s funny that you think that that is strange , atoms being made from sound... and although that was unknown to me ... i did watch this cool imax movie that showed the sun and they said that the sun actually produces sound and that it is in aome kind of harmonics too... it was so cool!
Shadow Alpha: you wont "tell me" becuase you dont have any proof.ya,you can knock on something and produce sound,all that does is prove my point that sound is merely vibrations.oh and by the way,science doesent work by holding back information genius.alright then,the burden of proof for the sound theory is on you.first question is what cuases the vibrations that produce atoms in the first place?(and god did it is not a valid response.) and i never tried to use evolution as a means of proving you wrong,you tried to use evolution as a smug attempt to make me look stupid and it backfired becuase it turned out you didnt even understand the basic idea of the theory.which if anything supports me and lowers your credibility.Shadow=1,Jesus=0. and ill repeat one more time,quit veering off topic,the topic is that the burden of proof is on you to prove beyond a reasonable scientific doubt that jesus existed.if you want to discuss the material properties of atoms or discuss the theory of evolution;talk to me in a private message,or start a wiki for it.dont flood this page to hide your holes in your arguement.
Beyond Tenor: Lol. Actually, God is the answer. Science has no proof of any other form creating these sound waves. No I won't tell you because you need to learn to figure things out on your own. You can start with grammar. It presents you in a more profound manner, and people take what you say more serious, just to let you know. If was made from protons and nuetrons and electrons, and these items had no different beginning, which they wouldn't if they were the smallest, then everything would have to make the same sound when knocked on. Why? Because there's nothing different in their make up. So, that does prove they have to a have a different beginning. Science shows that beginning is sound waves. Ask a scientist to share their research, they won't. Why? Because you need to do your own. Shadow, I didn't try to use anything to backfire on you, and it certainly didn't backfire on me. I probably understand it more thoroughly you. I study things as such for FUN. I'm not veering off topic. Someone doesn't know how to correlate ideas and proofs into a debating environment. Atoms actually help prove. If God is real, for who the Bible says He is, then His Son Jesus Christ is real as well. The Bible can't be half-truth. It's all or nothing. I'm not flooding to hide holes, because with God, there are none. Everything is complete in Him.
Shadow Alpha: this is utter bullshit,im not gonna sit around all night on google searching for some nut case christian "scientist" claiming that the world is made of sound.first off you need a dictionary,becuase all of your assumptions on theories and objects lead you to incorrect definitions.Second off i dont care about any small grammar mishaps.this isent a spelling bee,its a debate.Further more you wont show evidence becuase you have no evidence.how the hell do you expect anyone to believe you if you wont show them evidence and tell them to "go find it your self".no one would get anywhere fast like that.you still havent awnsered my earlier questions either. and what kind of scientist doesent provide evidence for his claims?there is none. your nuts,your bible is crap,and i have yet to receive ANY evidence about jesus being real,nor have i been directed to the documents the roman's supposedly recorded proving that jesus existed.
Cia_mar: the bible says that all things were created by God and for God....and the reason we brought in the whole debate on God as proof for the existance of Christ was because you said that one needed to be a christian to believe what the bible said ... however you have that backwards... you have to believe first to be a christian...."blessed are they who believe ans have not yet seen"....
Beyond Tenor: Lol. That's because you can't answer it either. See, I'm going to different things everytime. You're still stuck on your same focal point. I know how a debate works. I am probably the best my high school had. I don't need a dictionary, because I read it just because. You should try it. You'll learn words dont' mean what the world has been using it as for the past year. And the scientists (notice it's plural) aren't even Christians. My not giving you my evidence, actually is a good thing. You dont' care about looking it up tells me that you are completely stuck in the rut of your mental focus. Therefore, I can tell you that this debate is utterly useless. When you find it own your own inform. I'll leave this alone now. Seeing my point made, and the mind completely closed to any idea not their own. You may friend are nuts. I pray that God opens your eyes. And, just for the record, you haven't given us the "evidence" to prove your points either. It's always been "They say, they say, they say." Don't point fingers when you're guilty as well.
Cia_mar: if you are open to read a book that DOES use documented scientific and historic fact to prove the existance of God and the validity of the bible... please look for "The Signature of God" by Grant Jeffrey... he is very factual and documents all of his sources....
Shadow Alpha: i dont need to provide links to websites becuase all that i have said can be proven right now.so far ive concluded to you that evolution is a theory(although you treat it like a cult),that the documents proving jesus is real have yet to be shown to me,that atoms are not sound becuase that theory is inconsistent and you refuse to show evidence becuase you lack it and you count on me to support your arguement for you.im focusing on the same point becuase my questions werent awnsered.you merely started talking about something unrelated to my question to try and make me forget about it.you cant debate for crap,and if your the best from your highschool,then that doesent say much about your peers. Cia,i cant stress this enough,the evidence ive requested is physical evidence,not merely links to more texts written by more people that dont know what they are talking about becuase they cant back up their claims.you guys are horrible at proving a point so far. and my mind isent closed,i just have a bullshit detector that sniffs out when people avoid my questions with their unrelated dogma. and religion survives off of faith,not proof.faith is believing in something without any evidence becuase it makes ya feel good.another word for that definition is gullability. and by the way Tenor,you cant go around trying to redefine words in the dictionary.i have the feeling it has a bit more legitamacy then you do.
Cia_mar: that the documents proving jesus is real have yet to be shown to me:......... do you expect us to just carry copies of them in our back pocket... i cannot always remember where i put my keys let alone what book i read good info from... but the book i recomended was one of the most informative... however i loned it out so do not have the "documents" that you require.... i am sorry... but i know that if you were to look at the evedance offerd in that book it would explain things much better than i can...
Shadow Alpha: and the comment about having to believe to be a christian as apposed to being a christian to believe is what most call double-speak.they both mean the same thing.to be a christian you have to ignore logic and rationality. sorry Cia,the "i dont have it with me right now" wont cut it.you can either use the documents from the romans themselves,or you cant use it as a crutch to prove that jesus is real.
Cia_mar: well if you would like to search my house then to help me find it i wouldl love to have some one here to help clean up after my 5 kids... but aside from loving to talk with peole on here i have a life offline too that requires that things get put away and sometimes packed awy.... tell me .. what is it that make you you?... is it your physical body or is there more to it than that?
Shadow Alpha: 1)by evidence i meant the ACTUAL peice of material the romans recorded the data on.not something written in modern times.2)thats incredibly off-topic,and boreder line proselytizing,but ill throw you a bone:what makes me me is a combination of my physical make up and my own personally developed sense of conciussness that allows me to think,behave,and interact with the world.i see nothing godly about this.
Cia_mar: so would you then say that your personality... your consious self (yes i know i spelled that wrong)... i somthing other than your physical body? arg i will have to continue this at another time... pleas come back and chat with me on monday.... you can always send me a message to my house!
Shadow Alpha: no,i believe that everything about me mentaly manifested has come from my brain and its ability to reason the world.so yes,i believe everything about me is grounded whithin physical properties..oh,and about those atoms.. http://education.jlab.org/qa/atom.html
Cia_mar: so then how do you explain out of body experiences and things like ghosts or even some of the para normal things like telekinisis?
Shadow Alpha: alot of it is made up,some of it is imagined,and the rest cant be put through scientific method becuase theres no physical evidence to test. if i claimed that i could move a car with my mind,you would expect me to back that up by moving it with my mind.show me someone that can geniunly move things with their mind beyond reasonable doubt and then the supernatural in the case of telekenesis may have legitamacy. the reason its called paranormal and supernatural is becuase no one has ever actually proved it to be real,and cant repeat the events in a scientific expirament.its not real until it has been proven so.the same goes for religion.its only a belief system made for people who dont have a problem placing their lives around something with no evidence.it aint real unless it can be proven real,in which it cant,so that means that christianity as i have stated before,survives off of gullability. religion simply CANT stand up to logic.
Beyond Tenor: I'm logically mind. You can quit with your rude comments. Downing everything. There are wiki's for people who want to down Christianity. Find one. I do understand my God said whosoever believe in their heart and confess with their mouth shall be saved, not whosoever is saved shall be believers. Satan believes too... but he wont' confess. I have no problem facing my life. You do. You think you have all the answers. Don't say you have proven He doesn't exist with your theories. That's not going to work for you anymore than it does for us. That's what is called a double-standard. You're not a good debator. You my friend are gullable... 1Timothy 6:20-1 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.
Shadow Alpha: heh,trust me buddy,if you wanna go into scripture we can definantly go there.and theres nothing logical in beleiving something exist when rationality says otherwise.criticising christianity is the right thing to do.if i hurt your feelings by doing so,then oh well.sue me.dont cop out and start going fire and brimstone becuase your losing the arguement and cant awnser my questions.either support your claims are admit that you cant prove jesus existed. and i have little reason to respect christians,bringers of oppression,violence,and death to the world.you and every other crazy cult out there have cuased nothing but confusion and suffering to the human race.even if your jesus and your god were proven real beyond reasonable doubt i dont understand why you would worship them.god supposedly created everything,knows everything,and has the power to do as he wish.it is thus logiclly concluded that he not only created evil and suffering,but that he also enforces and imposes it apon humans and at the same time tries to give them a fake sense of free-will.good rarely comes from religion as opposed to the hundreds of millions who have had to suffer and die becuase of it. the inquisition,the crusades,the holocuast,the salem witch trials.the list goes on and you guys have a hefty bill to awnser to.you arent individuals becuase if you follow the bible you have to agree with EVERYTHING it has to say.including the parts about murdering anyone different from you.A true christian is one of the most evil people in this world.as a matter of fact,the true follower of just about any crazy cult has been and still is a part the genocide movement. so dont give me crap about insulting you.if your a true christian,you deserve it.no rational person wants your evil in their life. if you want proof of THAT i have plenty of videos to support that..ill show them too you right now if you ask otherwise shut the fuck up and get back on topic you ignorant peice of trash.
Beyond Tenor: I'm on topic. You're not. You can't disprove anything. I have answered your questions. You can't see that. That's fine. The people who serve God aren't the causer for that stuff. Hitler also taught his group he was under divine influence. Was he? No? Jewish leaders tried to convince people they were. Were they? No. They used it as a scapegoat to get by with what they want. You can't prove Jesus didn't exist. You want to get huffy and puffy, then do it. Go somewhere that it's supposed to be. Do it there. You have a bitter heart against religion. I know why. I'm a prophet. You have no proof of Christians being evil. You have proof of HUMANS being evil. This flesh is evil. The spirit is
Shadow Alpha: you are not a prophet,you are commiting one of the highest sins there are:false prophets. its religion that fooled these people into following hitler in the first place! and my questions have yet to be awnsered:the actual, physical,original roman document that supposedly proves jesus is real has not been shown to me and atoms arent made from sound,thats insane. people dont come back to life 3 days after death,they dont walk on water,and they dont perform miracles.jesus is fake.plain and simple,i dont have to prove he isent fake becuase you make the claim that he exist in the first place.if we played your game i could just as easily ask you to prove santa and the easter bunny arent real. better yet,prove IM not god!
Beyond Tenor: -- willing but the flesh is weak. This is no crazy cult. This is life or death, my friend. I'm far from ignorant. We can tell by the diction. You can't use correct grammar. According to the dictionary, that would make you ignorant, but I won't call you a fool. The Bible doesn't say to kill someone different than me. It says to love my enemy. I know where it is written down. I can show you at any time. Genocide? How can Christians be genocidal? We are taught to love one another, and our fellow man. John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. HA! you God? You have no love. God is love. I win. See, that's all why we know it's God.... it's not possible without Him.
Shadow Alpha: how is god love?what has he ever done for you that couldnt of been done by humans? and mind you,god is extremly homicidal,explain the great flood?or hell,lets go with modern times,whats with the earthquakes and tsunamis?what did his creations ever do to deserve it?he supposedly knows everything,so what on earth did he expect from his own creations?face it,if god is real your nothing but a little play thing. This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee. Deuteronomy 2:25 Ex.4:11 Who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? And David said on that day, Whosoever ... smiteth ... the blind that are hated of David's soul, he shall be chief and captain. Wherefore they said, The blind and the lame shall not come into the house." -- 2 Samuel 5:8 so far ive proven god loves to terrorize nations,then makes people handicap and hates them for it. this is the icing on the cake,i can go on about how god has ordered the sluaghter of men,woman,and children,even had his followers rip a baby from the inside of a living pregnant woman just to kill it.
Beyond Tenor: Ex 4:11 doesn't do anything. He also heals those ailments as well. Trying to shake my faith? You look at what He did to those who hated Him. that doesn't mean anything, because God is mercy, and God is love. It's all in His Word. It's one big love letter.
Child of God: THAT'S ENOUGH! This wiki is for civilized discussion, not bashing one another or what they believe! Also, this sites states right on it that scientific issues will not be disccussed, so if you want to do that, message one another. There are both Roman and Jewish documents documenting the death of Jesus. I don't know what the Roman ones are called, but I know they exist because anyone crucified was recorded and a justification of it was sent to the Emporer. The Jewish Tulmads, which can be found in a publication of it called The Archko Volume; or The Archeological Writings of the Sanhedrim and Talmuds of the Jews. As I have stated before, there is no historian alive who will debate the existance and death of Jesus. It is the theology behind it all that is debatable. As to why God command, did and allows aweful things to take place in the Bible, that requires a lesson in the history surrounding it. If you would like more information on that please see the wiki What We Are. Once exams are done, I plan to finish posting the theology 101 on topics like that. I apoligize I don't have it done for you now, but my exams start next week and I still have a few history and philosophy papers to write. Your demand for scientific evidence will have to be better expained. Is it evidence for the existence of Jesus, because I have already provided what proof I have available. If you would like evidence as to why that is considered legitamite proof, I would be happy to get into a debate about that with you. If it is proof that Jesus was divine, I can attempt to entertain that, though I would ask we wait for 2 weeks so I can give you full, solid answers and evidence for it. Much of the proof here will be reached through historical and philosophical means. If you are unhappy with that, I apologize. We can attempt a CIVILIZED discussion on creationism vs. evolution if you'd like, but that one may take a while. I have a basic understand of everything along there, but I would have to do research as we go and I'm not sure how educated the others are here in this wiki on that topic. (Heaven knows there's a reason I'm a Philosopher and Historian and not a scientist or mathematician!) The documents I have refered you to are, of course only copies. The real parchments are under glass at the Constantinople Museum. They have been confirmed as being written during the time of Christ (that is to say, not the span of his physical life but in reguards to the time period.), using scientific dating as well as historians who specialize in that time period. (Some historians cross with linguistics, to authenticate a document to a specific time period based on the way it was written. Each different time period has it's one 'writting style' you could say.) Anything in history is near to impossible to give scientific evidence for, particulary if it happened for the development of modern science. History cannot be based on scientific fact, unless you wish to discuss pre-history for which I'm afraid I don't have much knowledge. There is no scientific evidence for Buddha, Mohummud (sp?), for Druids, Vandals, Goths, early North Americans. There are only historical documents and perhaps ruins if we are lucky. Anything recorded in the documents though, we have to take as truth for the people and time period. That is the way history works.
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