Previous Proof Discussions Continued

[Child of God]: If you are willing, [Sedition], I would be more than happy to resume the debate with you, whether on the wiki or pm. Only, like I said, I can only offer historical evidence and debate with historical and philosophical frameworks. If you saw my Physics' marks last semseter you'd understand why. Though I had much fun in my class. My prof must have thought I was insane when I began asking him about the probability of aliens! ^-^ That was a fun debate! In all honesty, I hate organized religion myself. I go to a Reformed University because I wanted an education based on Christian foundations for once in my life. I'm a fairly new Christain and I grew up in a secular house. I don't go to church because I don't agree with the church hierarchy. If Jesus were to return tonight, he would overturn every church and burn every creed know to the Judeao(sp?)-Christian world. I also dislike the approach Christians are taking toward non-Christians these days. I made the site not to try to convert people, but to defend what I believe. I got sick of people attacking me for my beliefs, but I'm not out to change anyone else's, and that's something that alot of people forget. I'm thinking of doing my doctorate thesis on this topic for my PhD, so anything you have against it would be appreciated, as it forces me to do my research and find out.

[Sedition]: i have some really bad experiences with christians,and i used to be one myself.i turned away from faith for multiple reasons,the most pressing being that it totally ignores logic and relies on me believing it without any evidence.the fact that no one has ever actually seen god but swears up and down that he is real also helped me move to athiesm.the final straw for me was the massive amount of suffering in this world that can be attributed to religion.i personally witnessed 9/11 for myself,and if it wasnt for religuos dogma and intolerance,it wouldnt of happend.

[Child of God]: True, but that is dogma based on another religion. I've had some really bad experiences with not only my own faith but also people of other faiths. I look to the doctrine to see what their doctrine says, and judge from there. I used to be a Witch (not Wiccan) before I was a Christian, so you can only imagine the backlash I got from different denominations. Your search for evidence for this is completly understandable, just try to remember there is other types of evidence besides scientific evidence. Anthropological, sociological, psychological, historical and philosophical can't rely on scientific evidence to prove them, only to confirm them when possible. To look for purely scientific evidence everywhere in the world to prove something is not rational. Something can be rational without being scientific. That is the mistake people in the Englightnment made. David Hume was huge for that, considered the ultimate skeptic of religion. He set the stage for the later atheistic exestencial belief that "God is dead and we have killed him, therefore we must become gods to justify it." (not literal Gods, but I'm sure understand what I mean by that right?). So just be sure to keep your mind open to other forms of proof and rational beside empirical, scientific proof.

[Sedition]: i conclude things by scientific method becuase science doesnt rely on stories or what people have to say.science is cold and controlled and more or less runs with the "you either have evidence to prove your claim in a way that it can be repeated in a test to show that what your saying is really true" train of thought.theres over 5,000 different gods out their right now,and over 90% of the world believes in atleast one of them unquestionangly.im part of that 10% that looks at why we believe and viciuosly scrutinizes it for the large amount of suffering it has cuased humans in the shape of genocide,war,barring of life saving science (such as stem cell research that could of cured cancer patients until christians destroyed it.),barring of civil rights and the right to free speech,and the list goes on.To me there isent a shred of proof on this planet supporting a god.and if there is it must be hella hard to find.unless god himself steps down and shows himself to his creations i will treat him like i treat santa cluas:a figment of the imagination that should of been grown out of when people werent kids anymore and the lies were first drilled into their gullable heads.I left christianity becuase it made me feel horrible,and couldnt awnser any logical questions.i also didnt want to be part of a group who's main goal is world domination by assimilation.

[Child of God]: Interesting you should say that since the 2005 census shows that over 40% of the world claims to be agnostic, not religious, 5% claim to be completely aetheist and 55% devouted in some way to a deity. Again, I'm saying be careful in judging the world by science only. There are many things science can do yes, but there are also many other things science can't do. Don't forget that science was started by Christians (or Catholics, but I have issues with Catholisism and their past. It technically isn't the Christians, but the Catholics who began the Crusades, the Witchhunts, etc. They even pursucuted the Christians before the Reformation. Early scientists couldn't dream that their work would one day used as a point to reject God, they performed science inorder to prove God. And indeed their work has done a great job at that. Whether you want to call it "Intelligent Design" or God doesn't matter. The Law of Probability itself proves that there must have been something which began everything. It was also the Christians which cried out for freedome of speech and civil rights, while the Catholics tried to barr it (I'm not trying to pass the blame/bucket, but it is a historical fact)

Ironically enough, it was secular people who caused the greatest stinck about stem-cell research. Yes the Christians stated flat out they were against it, but it was the secular community which performed all the movements against it and had it barred. (Believe me that's all we studied in sociology in high school for a good 2 years.) Perhaps in the States that may not be true, but in Cananda, England and France it is.

God did come down to earth once and look what happened right? In Nizchie (sp?) word's "God is dead and we've killed him" quite literaly.

I do have a question for you though, as you seem to be fairly well educated on science; what about space, specifically the sun? We cannot know for sure the temperature of the sun, know about it's core or it's life. We can only make educated guess right? There is no first hand data, as we have yet to land a probe on the sun or gather samples. We can hypothesize about it based on what we know about earth (if I remember correctly from back in gr. 12 physics, they measure the sun's temperature based on colour right? The different color signify the heat intensity.) and apply it to the sun, but there is no way to perform a concrete experiment on the sun to test it right now.

Logic and science go hand in hand, but they also do contradict each other at times. Everything around us is based on history, yet there is no scientific way to prove history right? The greek democracy we hold so dear, there is no way to prove it actually existed. We can only go on documents we have. Carbon dating is accepted as being faulted, and not much credit these days are given to carbon dating tests. Fallen, lost civilizations, there is no way to scientifically prove that. There is no way to scientifically prove psychology (some disorders can be confirmed through medical testing but the way inwhich the mind works as far as thought process and why we think, feel and act this way with no medical explanation, which makes up about 40% of the mental health community). We can use the scientific method yes, but it has to be modified to fit the discipline.

[Sedition]: science wasnt "created" by christians or any other group of people.science is merely a set of steps used to test a hypothesis.the witch hunts were also conducted by protestants,not catholics.the first settlers of america from england were protestants that wanted "religuos freedom" from the catholic run europe.however their idea of religuos freedom was the idea of not having to be catholic.you werent allowed to believe differently and it showed with public executions.the reason agnosticism and athiesm have risen over the past 10 years is becuase we have just entered a new era of human history were data can be exchanged across the world in the blink of an eye over the internet,and different ideas and beliefs can reach places that would of otherwise of been stuck with the same ideology for eternity.reason and logic are in the rise over faith,which teaches you to be content with what you cant understand.

logic and science cant contradict each other becuase science relies on logic to function properly.carbon testing may not be perfect but it gives a general idea of how old things are,which contradicts the bible becuase we have found that humans had basic civilizations for far longer then 10,000 years as the bible has said.The sun's heat is measured in different ways by different disagreeing scientist,i personally beleive in measuring the suns heat by its distance and effect on objects such as earth,not by its color.proof of historical documents is no exception to scientific method.you have to prove the documents are what they say they are and not a hoax right?

as for stem cell research it was quite the opposite here.the secular "community" (there is no real community since all we have in common is a lack of belief in god)was largly for it.the "christian right" (a theocratic special interest group in the states bent on christian control of the government) was the main group against stem cell research and abortions.who knows how many have died that could of been saved if it werent for the christian right?i would also like a listing of the secular groups that went against the stem cell research,i can surely give you a list of christian groups that were against it,some of which are as follows:

The christian right
God hates fags
The family foundation
Christians for a better tomarrow
and those are just 4 of the big ones.athiest are extremly outnumbered in the world and agnostics just ride the fence and never take a stance on anything.

As for the catholics running most of the genocide in the world i can only half agree with you.the catholics DID run the inquisition,crusades,and holocuast (hitler was a catholic along with the nazi movement).however protestants have killed just as many with the witch trials,the destiny manifesto(american colony expansion and religuos and ethnic cleansing of all native american tribes all the way to the west coast,along with the pacific islands and parts of the caribbean.),protestants were also the longest to hold onto slavery becuase the bible actually approves of it and tells slaves to never rebel against their masters.Protestant,Catholic,Muslim,Jew,they all have their bill to sign.

Science cant be modified to fit any discipline becuase science is merely a method of testing,it isnt a belief system.how the mind works has only been elaborated on by science.tell me a verse from the bible explaining in medical terms how the mind works and why disabilities happen.in the contrary i can give you bible verses stating that not only does god purposlly give people disabilities,but also treats them as second class citizens

[Child of God]: Christians were the first to develope modern science. I will dig out a few of my old science and history books to back myself up, so that's gonna need a few days science my history and philosophy books have taken their place on the book self. Also, I had assumed that when I referred to the "secular community" you would understand that I am not referring to a literal community but rather the term which sociologists and historians have coined to seperate the believing body from the non-believing. Perhaps in the States the witchhunts were conducted by Protestants, but as I have said, I am Canadian and as such I know about as much about American history as much Americans know about Canadian history. (I have no interest in American history since untill WWII they've had little impact on Western and World history, though that is for another debate.) What is true for the rest of Western culture may not be true in the States due to their practice of isolationsim untill the early 20th Century.

The Bible never states how old the earth is just how it began. People have attempted speculating the biblical age in calculating by geneologies but never does it infere or give directly a number. That is just people trying to interpret the Bible (which I don't believe in either. The Bible to me is to be read, not interpreted but again that is another debate. That's not to say we should't read and believe without questioning.)

[Sedition]: define modern science first off.the scientific method has never changed so i dont see how christians started anything.plus i find it hard to believe christians started science becuase science is evident in history beyond 2006 years ago when christianity first started.otherwise civilizations such as rome and greece would of never of reached their pinnacles and become the most advanced civilizations of that era,with effects in technology that are still seen today.

[Child of God]: Rome and Greece were not the most advanced cultures of their day, Indian was more advanced than Greece and the Celts were much more advanced than Rome. Greece is most famous for it’s philosophy, not it’s science. I do not include mathematics with science sorry, and yes the Greeks advanced mathematics, mathematicians had actually made the same discoveries at an early date than in Rome. China has always been the most advance culture until it’s decline began in the 1500s and 1600s C.E. The science which the Greeks developed, and the Romans later adopted, was based on the mystical/metaphysical of even greater extravagance then anything the church can be accused of. Hyppocrates was the leading authority on medicine until the 16th century, which was strictly metaphysically based. Socrates practiced and helped to develop a philosophy of science, as did Plato, but not science itself. Aristotle began practicing something that could be similar to early-modern science, but his works were lost to the West after Rome fell until the 14th Century.

The scientific method, which is what separates modern science from classical science, was developed by Rene Decartes in 1619, which was provoked by the Renaissance that began in c.1350 and lasted until the late 1500s. Decartes was a Christian, as was Copernicus (who some argued really began modern science because he was the first to truly utilize the scientific method for the use of science rather than philosophy. Kepler, Galileo, Newton were all Christians. Einstien was a Jew. Western science and religion were not separated in the minds of scientists until Darwin. (Philosophers are a different story.) 

The witch-hunts conducted in the States were conducted by Puritans, a radicalized version of Protestantism. The Inquisition was lead by the Catholic Church. Hitler was not a Catholic, he was a Satanist/Occultist. No, I’m not just saying that. There is historical proof that from when his, and all of his high ranking officers’ bunkers were raided. If you want proof of that, you’ll have to go online and look for it yourself because that time period is not my specialty. Hitler persecuted mainly Jews yes, but also gassed Protestants, Catholics, Homosexuals, Gypsies and the mentally challenged community.

[Sedition]: firstly,when you make such claims it helps to provide a source,otherwise anything you say holds less water.

secondly,religion is known for hindering science,but it doesent mean christians or jews or whatever cannot follow the scientific method.however science and religion can,have,and will conflict on many subjects,and this more often then not has led to the delay of innovations that could save lives or enhance the quality of life.if you want to talk about hitler's faith,its convuluted.even if he wasnt a christian alot of his psycho babble was based off of personal religuos doctrine.im not just against christianity,im fairly against all 43,800+ religions in the world

[Child of God]: I never said you were biased against just one, and like I said, all of my sources can be backed up until we get deeper into the realm of science since I'm not a science major. Religion only began hindering science after Darwin, it's a fact that can be found in the history of science and early philosophy of science. If you would like the name of the textbooks, authors and publishers to confirm this I can provide you with the ones I have which state such. I must point out you have not provided a single source to back up your claims, especially the ones in reguards to Hitler since no respective academic would make such a claim. Your claims as to science are false as well, since though the history and science books don't directly credit religion they do site all of the first modern scienctists as being religious and performing religion to further prove the existence of God. They said that since there is so much order to everything, there must have been a creating since according to science you cannot have order from Chaos. It is scientifically impossible and is one of the scientific laws. More and more modern science are pointing to some sort of creator as more and more are being developed in science. Darwin himself near the end of his life stated after studying the human eye alone that there must have been a creator or at the very least a creative design for something so complex yet effective to develope.


[Cia_mar]: it is funny how people think that just being a good moral person is ok.. that if you fallow the commandments because they are morally sound that we are fine... but i just watched a movie called "time changer" and one of the point was that if we teach morals without teaching who set those morals then eventually no one will care about the morals they have no meaning... to illustrate this, a guy time traveled into the future and in his adventure a youg girl stole his lunch, after chasing her down, he said "young lady it is wrong to steal..." her response was:" says who"

[Sedition]: why do you need a sky-daddy to tell you right from wrong?are you not morally sound enough to draw your own boundaries?alot of people in the world have no god,and were perfectly able to come up with their own ethics and morals,explain? oh,and before you explain,saying parents did it wont count.alot of people dont care about what their parents have to say and come up with their own system of ethics,like a child who's parents are in the KKK,it doesnt mean the kid will join the KKK also,quite the opposite.i have a friend in that position and if anything he loves minorities and curses his parents for their bigotry.this proves that its possible to gain morals and ethics without some source implanting them at a young age.

[Cia_mar]: but if my ethics and morals conflict with yours then tell me who is right? and who is to be the judge of who is right?

[Sedition]: why does their need to be a judge? there are certain things almost all humans have instinctivly declared as right and wrong,its simply the way we evolved.murder is disdained in ALL societies.although some societies are more violent then others at their core they are for the most part against violence.however religion has a tendency of giving them loopholes like in islam that allow them to murder under the pretense of honor killings and such,and in christianity,over things like apostacy and witchcraft or whatever.

[Cia_mar]: in reguards to "are you not morally sound enough to draw your own boundaries"... do have children of your own yet? because if you don't i can understand your position on this, but see i have 5 kids and if i were to let them each do what they think is right, then there would be anarchy in my house... there has to be someone to be a law giver and mediator as well as a judge

[Sedition]: i agree,law is infact necessary,but law does not equal personal moralities.explain the fact that about 91% of the population in prision is in prison,the rest is pretty much muslim,and less then .5% is athiest?the arguement of numbers works for awhile,but there are over 16million athiest in america alone,explain how so many manage to stay out of jail?

[Cia_mar]: ah but those may not be breaking any laws of the land, but how many of them steal office supplies from work... a pencil here or a pad of paper there... that is stealing too isn't it ? yet a majority of them never are caught for it.... we lie daily but unless it is in a court of law no one goes to jail or is penalized, so does it make it right? people commit adultry but again none will face charges for it ... yet these things are wrong... now by whose standard are they wrong? well of course God's but even though this world has slowly stopped thinking of all the 10 commandments as law, we today have taken those laws and removed the power from behind them by removing our fear/respect of God... by doing this we think that all that we think say and do , we are no longer accountable to any one for... but again all we are doing is living in a corrupt sinnfull system that allows this. that doesn't make it right.

[Sedition]: oh yes,becuase everyone is a christian and fears the invisible sky-daddy that has never been proved for his 2006 years of existence. and that arguement isent valid becuase in that case christians would do it just as much anyway,so whats your point? if christians some how obeyed all of God's crazy laws,there would be little need for a hell,which question's God's personal morals anyway. if anything man is by far more moral then god can ever be.read the bible,your god is an angry,spitefull,jealous,war-mongering,murderous god who has killed billions for his sick egotism.

[Cia_mar]: if he was mean and spitefull then he would never have allowed any survivors of the flood, none of the isralites would have ever made it to the promise land, david would never have been a king after his tryst with bathsheba asn the number one thing , he would have never provided an ultimate sacrifice that would attone for all our sins.... God set the laws into being in the beginnning, he is not above the laws that he set, therefore being a righteous and just God, he HAD to deal out dicipline to those who were disobedient , but he also sent Jesus to pay for sin so that all who believed and accepted the blood covering that was offered up for us and now we can obtain his mercy

[Sedition]: tell me why god felt the need to kill so many in the first place?why leave just a few survivors?to continue his sick game. like survivors of the tsunamii thanked god that they survived,but why not question and curse god for killing their children and loved ones in the first place for seemingly no good reason?infact,there is NO reason that genocide should be ok,unless you agree with methods like the holocuast.the holocuast was run by christians getting revenge on jews just so ya know

[Cia_mar]: well if you had 10 kids adn you told them they all had to complet a certain thing and be obedient to all that yousaid, that they would go to the movies on saturday, but all but 2 of them sluffed off their chores and they broke the rules and were disobedient.... who would get to go to the movies? would you reward those who were not good? or would you punishe those who were good by ssaying all would not go? no you would reward those who were good and punish those bad.... in God's law the punishment or payment/wages of sin is death... so that is what they got! the holocaust was run by those who said they were christians but they were not if they were then they wouldn't have done those things... (if the love of God is not in you then you are not part of his family) as for the tsunami .. well the bible also says that we are in this world and will experience the things that happen here... "it rains on the just nd the unjust alike" again there are laws that are set into place and they cannot be broken.... the people who ridiculed noah had a chance to be saved too. but no one wanted to give up their selfish lifestyles to repent and obey so you noaw are faulting God for the stupidity and choices of peole who openly mocked God.

[Sedition]: oh yes,lets use the "no true scotsman" arguement and say the nazis werent christians becuase you dont agree with their methods.let me break it to ya buddy,they were doing exactly what the bible told them to do.they,by your doctrine,were doing as they told and are in your heaven.you share your heaven with the most evil people in history books.and what kind of parent actually KILLS his children becuase they dont feel compelled to listen to a parent thats never there for them? that,and i suppose all the little babies that were unable to even sin to begin with were killed for pick-pocketing their neighbor or burning a cat or something.your logic is flawed here.that tsunamii killed alot of people that never did anything wrong.and the age of accepting responsibility for your actions in the bible is about 12-13 i believe.before that it is your parents that assume responsibility for whatever sins you commit.so why were some of the first people killed in the tsunamii children that were chasing the receding water?

[Cia_mar]: what kind of parent actually KILLS his children becuase they dont feel compelled to listen to a parent thats never there for them?.... hmmm well i must say that it may be harsh ... but what country kind has the right to kill those who breaks it laws?

[Sedition]: this is ridiculous,theres no way you can call your god all loving when it is painfully clear that he kills those even loyal to him without warrant.and why kill them anyway?why would he inflict so much pain and suffering if he is all loving and forgiving?am i shooting rapid fire questions?good,this is crap NO christian can explain without admitting that god isent all loving,god is OK with killing loyal innocents,or that god is infact,not all powerfull and all knowing. we rarely inact the death penalty,when employed its usually becuase the person has murdered exponentially.and nowadays most people prefer to just let the person rot in prison for life anyway.why worship a god that is going to kill you despite how faithfull you are?

[Cia_mar]: well it is God's law that is perfect and just... if the law of the land says that the penalty is death for those who kill... then no amount of protests should be able to knock down it's severity to somingthing like life imprisonment.... like i said God's law is perfect and Just and righteous... there is only one way to be sure that what i have done is forgiven an that is to apply the death of Jesus Christ to my sin and aske forgiveness for my sin.... , why is it so hard for people to do this? because it requires living according to someone elses will.. that is a humbling experience and not many want to be humble... people view it as being weak but in truth it takes more strength to be meek And humble then it does to be mighty and in control and proud.

[Sedition]: yes,so you enslave yourself to someone youve never seen or heard from.and then expect everyone else to go along.ok,lets play your game:what makes it so just and righteous?cus god said so?what if he started telling people to rape and murder their mothers,does that make it ok since god told us to do it?

[Cia_mar]: well i won't go there because God doesnt and can't tell us to do that and those who say that he does are not following the right God.... there is no what if whith God he is what he is and he does not change....and i do not consider myself enslaved, " if the son sets you free you are free indeed" what am i a slave to? how am i a slave... i have known more freeddom in christ then anyone or thing else in my life... tell me how i am a slave when i still have the freedome to choose what i do? do i obey every min of the day ? no do i fall and make mistakes? yes all the time.. the differance is the peace i have knowing that my sin is forvable when i ask...being a christian does not mean i live a sin free life.. i t means that i do my best to follow him and because i can ask for forgiveness i am assured that i will not be condemed for my mistakes.

[Sedition]: you are a slave becuase you cower in fear of upsetting something no one knows exist.its the biggest boogy man in human history. and why not go there?i was speaking hypotheticlly,if you refuse to awnser it ill just assume that means yes,you would rape and murder your mom if god told you too. which proves my earlier arguement that humans use religion to find loopholes in instinctive morals and ethics ingrained into them like anti-murder or anti-rape.

[Cia_mar]: no i would not do that if some one toled be that God said that. because i wouldn't believe it.. how can i when God's word says the exact opposite... he would never say that... i do not live in fear of upsetting anyone... i never said that i was!

[Cia_mar]: i will have to continue this later.. i have to get things done here at home... with 5 kids laundry is a never ending story..*smile* i am not upset neither do i hate you or anyother bad thing like that, i can repct you whether i think you are right or wrong, but i would not be a "good" Christian if i could not explain why i believe what i do and why....some things are unchanging and concrete in my life, but the one solid fact that i know wil never be swayed by popular opinion, or the changing times or the circumstances of the day and that is God... i can trust Him with my whole heart... who else can we do that with in this world... no one, and tha is what faith is all about!

[Sedition]: i said if god himself told you to do so,not if someone else did.you obviuosly wouldnt believe it if a human said it.i guess ill c ya later then,maybe we can get back to our session of you dodging my questions later.

[Cia_mar]: i am not dodging your questions, but if i knew that God really told be this... now are you telling me that he says this now after the establishment of His bible.. the word.. or are you saying that he tells me this and his word has said this sort of thing before? you see that is why i have to know. because if i thought God spoke to me and he told me something that was contrary to his established word then i would not believe it was God who told it to me... it is that simple, God does not contradict his Word

[Sedition]: so basiclly you would consider yourself crazy then if you heard him tell you this?well then i must ask,why arent you crazy for believing what he says from a BOOK?

[Cia_mar]: you did not anwer me... what was established before?

[Sedition]: why should it matter,it came from the word of god himself,if he is omnipotent he can change his mind

[Cia_mar]: no he cannot if he could then he would be no more reliable than a human... and it is his UNCHANGING quality that makes it possible for me to trust him

[Sedition]: then if he cannot change,he is not all powerfull,and he is still just as cruel as he was in old testament,which means you admit that your god is an angry,violent,and malevolent god that doesnt care what it hurts or kills.

[Child of God]: Not true. You need to look at this from the big picure. Because we are mortal, we tend to look at things from a limited time frame and perspective. You need to look at the events leading up to it. Every time God is provoked to action, it is over many years of leading up to it and instigation. It's not that God can't change His mind, since in the Bible God is shown to change His mind but always to the benefit of mankind. He changes His mind but He doesn't contradict Himself because then you are right, He wouldn't be omnipotent. However, change and contradiction are two different things. God doesn't cause the pain and suffereing in the world, humans do. That is one of the concequences of free-will. Every ill we find in humans, we put ourselves there. The illnesses of the world, we humans caused not God. AIDS comes from ancient practises in Africa with intercourse from monkies, cancer only first started to develope with the scientific revolution because of the polution and chemicles. Every disease can find it's roots in something humans have caused. Most of the conflict in the world comes from greed and hatred, which humans developed. God gave this world to us, for us to take care of and care for. If we don't do that, how then is God responisble for the results? Everything that befalls mankind is because of it's own doings. If God were to rescue us every time, we would never learn would we? Only now, after thousands of years are we finally recognizing some of this and trying to change it, but it will take that much longer to change. It goes back to free-will. We are given the choice, but we have to deal with and live with the concequences, even if those consequences aren't seen until generations later. And you can't just assume because someone won't answer your question that they are agreeing with you. That is called a Slippry-Slope Falacy and is not valid in a debate.

[Sedition]Child of God i need not remind you that when in a debate it pays little to speak in metaphysical terms that cannot be backed up with physical evidence.secondly cancers and diseases existed long before man's arrival on the scene.Please explain that?explain why poisin exist,a natural substance capable of killing?explain why god gave us the capacity to kill.explain why tsunamiis,earthquakes,tornados,hurricanes,and other natural disasters happen.these things happend before the appearance of humans so its not valid to say its all man's fualt.If god is omniscient then why would he knowling create humans knowing they would just cuase suffering and death apon themselves,and then knowing this,punish his creations with hell fire?how could a loving god knowingly do all this?hell,lets broaden the scope here,why the heck were humans created in the first place?was god bored?does he find our struggles entertaining?is he egotistical and wants people to worship him?whats the point?whats his "big ultimate plan" for humanity?your basiclly his property so please explain your purpose to him.

[Child of God]: Gladly. First off though, I was not speaking in metaphysical terms and I ask that you point where I was. There are plently of proof that these diseases did not emerge until humans caused it. There has been no ancient remains found which have these diseases. Ask any historian and they will tell you AIDS, Cancer in all it's forms and most of the other diseases today are what are called modern diseases. They did not exist before humans caused the condition for them.

Many of the poisons out there now are chemically produced, which is man-made. If you are refering to early forms of poison, derived from plants I will have you note that almost all of the poisonous plants out there can also be used for healing. It is how humans use the plant that determine it's cause. If God puts something on earth that is misused from its origional purpose of healing and beauty, that is man's doing not God's.

God did not create in man the capacity to kill, that is part of the fall. With the fall came negative emotions such as jelousy, rage and the need for revenge. God did not create us with that, we gained those emotions when we ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

It is possible that God used tsumanis, volcanoes and such to to help to form the world in the beginning. However, I would care to ask how you know that such environmental events happened before the emergence of man? What proof do you have that these geological events occured before man occured, and not only after. You do not, because if you did, then you could disprove creation in that sense. You have theories, guesses and thesis' to go on, but no proof. You have a dating system which does not work to date geographical history. No one knows what occurred in prehistory, there is only theories.

As to the rest of your metaphysical and theological questions, we are told that God wanted companionship and fellowship so He created humans. He had the angels and such, but we are told that humans alone from all His creation bear His image and the gift of free-will. It seems that some have difficulty with exactly what free-will is so here is the dictionary definition of it:
Free-Will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
This means that God will not interfer with our choices once we make them and is something I think many people forget. You could then go on to ask why. Hell, you could ask why for anything and everything but some things don't have an answer. Does that mean it's not true? You cannot say it is so, since science is based on such questions and it's purpose is to answer them. The thing is, because God is love He created us even knowing what was going to happen and how it was going to end. That is the thing, you base your questions and opionions on the here and now, but as I said before you can't do that when dealing with theology. Theology and everything and anything to do with it is Teleological, meaning that it works towards a purpose or ultimate end. You cannot break that down to a here and now concept. Why? Take History of Science and philosophy in University to answer that. I'm not going to regurgitate 3 months worth of lessons here for that. If you have truly read that Bible as you claim you have, you would know that God did not intend for us to worship Him, but to have fellowship with Him. There is a difference.
Fellowship: A close association of friends or equals sharing similar interests, Friendship; comradeship.
Worship: The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed, Ardent devotion; adoration.


Now I know you are going to come back and say that these are not scientific or provable answers however I will point out that the questions you asked in reguards to these were theological not scientific and is therefore answered as such. If you do not like the response then rephrase the question. However, whenever you asked a theological question you will get either a metaphysical, theological or teleological response.

[Sedition] I'll try to spare you a 10 page essay on why everything you just said was a total cop out.your theology is being interrogated scientificlly,and if it cant stand up to it you have to admit that your belief is unsupported and illogical in all senses of it.So far,through all of our debates you have not once brought up a credible source for any of your claims,hell,you havent SPECIFICLLY directed me to any sources period.i wanna see how its proven that our dating technology is to fualty to not know when humans were or werent around earth.if anything the dating technology isent the issue since archeaology shows that different era's on earth have yeilded different fossiles the deeper you dig in the earth.your basiclly saying dinosuars and humans coexisted with each other.if so,then why no human bones found at the same sediment levels as,lets say,a t-rex that had a man for supper?

and you speak in metaphysical terms whenever you speak of things that rely on magical thinking to hold any water.if,lets say for some freaky reason,angels existed;you could involve them in an arguement without having to start a whole new arguement on the existence of angels.what we are ending up with is a main arguement thats splintering into a million arguements.and unlike some of the people i have debated,i do intend to stay a significant time to reply to questions and statements rather then cut tail and run becuase it gives me a headache or that i have better things to do (and trust me,sometimes in this arguement i would much rather be playing call of duty and shooting some nazis rather then argue over absurd claims that hint at the belief of humans co-existing with dinosuars,a totally different conversation from what we are supposed to be talking about).

aside from my obviuos aggravation at the occasional shifting of topics ill now start to adress the issue again.lets analyse this free will issue in list format:

-God is omnipotent and omniscient.
-Being omnipotent and omniscient would mean the G-man knows all and can do all.
-If G-wiz knows all,then everything is predestined becuase you cannot prove god wrong,that would overwrite his omnipotence.
-If G-dawg cant be proven wrong and he already knows everything that will ever happen,then you dont have free-will
-If he is Omnipotent he created you and me on purpose,knowing i would be an athiest,and knowing that i was destined for hell for commiting the one unforgivable sin:denying the holy spirit
-thus god created a large portion of man kind simply to send them to hell
-thus your obviuos point in life,since he knows all,is to play out a predestined life and to die and go to whichever afterlife he had already planned for you.
-thus their is no personal point in life.only the point to live and die in a predestined plot for heaven or hell.


so basiclly i was created to disbelieve in god and go to hell,were as you were created to be a christian and go to heaven,nevermind the 43,800+ other religions with omnipotent and omniscient gods that have predestined that you go to hell for not believing in them,thus cuasing a logical paradox that cuases a cosmic brain fart that equates to BS.if you had true free will your god cannot be omniscient or omnipotent,otherwise you lack free will becuase he already knows and has planned everything about you and your life.

and on a side note about everyone being made in his image (something i had almost forgot to adress when i noticed the little snippet in your post),then why are we all different sizes,genders,colors,and so on and so forth?why do we age?does god age?if we are all made in his image,why do we all look different?

[Child of God]: There is no need to start getting hostile. You want references and sources see The Proof Works Cited, as well as the following:

1. Physics: Concepts and Connections. Third Edition by Hobson Art, University of Arkansas 2003

2. Archetypes of Wisdom Fifth Edition by Douglas J. Soccio 2004 or online at www.wadsworth.com

3. The Earth and Its People Thrid Edition by Bulliet/Crossley/Headrick/Hirsch/Johnson/Northrup

4. The Human Record Volumes I and II Fifth Editions by Andrea/Overfield 2005

5. The Complete Medicinal Herbal Encyclopedia by Penelope Ody, 1993

6. "The Character of Physical Law" by Richard Feynman, MIT Press, 1965

7. "What is (Scientific) Truth?" by Charles C. Adams, March 1975

8. The Clock Work Image "Creation, Law and Miracle" by Donald M. Mackay, IVP 1974

9. "Religion and Science" by C.S. Lewis

10. Facets of Faith and Science Volumes I-III by Van der Meer, University Press of America, 1996

Including The Proof Works Cited I have now given you over 37 sources, you have yet to give me one. I want sources I can either go to the library, go to the book store or find online from you now. All of my sources are credible, academic sources which are used in Universities around North America and Europe and have been validated in Academia. I want the same sources from you now.

Here is just one example of how the dating system has been proven time and again to be faulted:
In 1989 a first year graduate class at the University of California undertook an experiment with carbon dating. They travelled to the South Pole and took clipings of live, young penguins, perserved them and brought them back to the University for carbon testing. The tests dated the clipings to be over 200, 000 years old. Thinking there had been an error in the sampling or process, the experiment was repeated 9 times, each time with the result showing the clipings to be hundreds of thousands of years old. Yale University took up the experiment in 1993 and had similar results. Arkansas Univeristy conducted the experiment in 1996. Each obtained results ranging in the thousands of years. It was this which lead to the full-scale study of carbon dating and the following conclusions:

Carbon dating is only efficient if environmental conditions do not change. Ultra-violet radiation changes the half-life of the carbon tested, as do varying weather conditions. It was determined by 8 Major European Univerities that Carbon dating is therefore ineffective and cannot produce any trustworthy results.
The system however, is still the most widley used due to the inefficiency and expense of other dating systems .
Courtesy of Physics: Concepts and Connections. Third Edition by Hobson Art, University of Arkansas 2003, approved by University Press of America 2001

As to your question about the dinosaurs not eating humans, I would like to point out that your example is invalid. The T-Rex was a very dumb carnivor, which was spurred and driven by need and instinct and did not have the capacity of, say Raptors, to hunt their prey. As such, even primitive humans could easily out-manouver and out-wit such a creature.

As to your accusations of speaking in metaphysical terms, as I stated you asked a metaphysical question. When you ask such questions, they spawn more debate. Such is the nature of all debates, since all debates, even scientific ones, take a philosophical turn. (If you care to disagree with this, wait until after you have taken a class in Rhetoric and logic at University. Until then, I'm not meaning this as an insult but you don't have enough knowledge or education to speak on such a topic, as I do not have enough education to entertain a scientifically based debate on creation vs. evolution.)

As to your use of the Cartesian Method, you are in fault there as well. Your first two assumptions can be taken as correct, but your third is faulty and therefore throws off the rest of your argument:
-God is omnipotent and omniscient. (valid assumption)
-Being omnipotent and omniscient would mean the G-man knows all and can do all. (valid assumption)
-If G-wiz knows all,then everything is predestined becuase you cannot prove god wrong,that would overwrite his omnipotence. (invalid assumption)

First off I would like to define predestined as is found in the dictionary:

Predestine/Predestination: To fix upon, decide, or decree in advance; foreordain, Destiny; fate.

Based on this definition, it does not contradict Free-Will, as the definition above shows us. God creates us, knowing everything about us including what choices we will make. That does not mean that He makes those choices for us. We choose our path independantly of God's force, in the sense that He is not forcing us down a particular path. There is a set path He creates us for, however we have the free-will to ignore that path and choose others. He may know that we will not choose the path He sets for us, but it does not stop Him from setting that path in the first place, giving us the opportunity to excersise our free-will and choose later on to again follow the path meant for us. It is a greater love to create us, even if He knows we will not follow the path set for us, then to not create us at all. Based on that, the rest of your argument there is invalid, as the rules of debate and science dictate in such a format as you used.

I would also like to point out that you yourself are falling into the trap of metaphysical debate you are fond of accusing me of. No where does the Bible say we go to Heaven or Hell when we die. It does say we go there upon Judgment, but not directly upon death. You are merely making assumptions based on stereotypes not fact.

On your question of race, gender, etc., and being in the image of God, how do you know that is not God's image? God is none-racial, and if you remember, everyone was the same until the Tower of Babel. That's not to say we were identical, but made in His image by way of having two arms, two legs, a brain that is capable in intelligence, eyes, a mouth, emotions, sensations, ect. 

Also, I would very much like to read this 10-page essay, so long as you also include the Bibliography/Works Cited for it so I can look up the credibility of it's sources.

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