The Proof Discussions Page 2

Same rules apply as the first page. Keep it clean, nice and intelligent guys. Any problems, message me at [Child of God].

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[Sedition] Ah,but why does he chose to supposedly show his existence in very vague ways such as extremly debateble 'miracles' which are usually just natural things that happen,but people cant understand,or dont try to?

And if you have a theory on predestination and what not,id like to hear it regardless of your level of education.is it not possible for the laymen to be smarter then a professor?does a sheet of paper saying a person is smarter then everyone else really make it true?they may definantly have an advantage,but it most certainly doesent rule out a laymen's capability of understanding a subject just as well as someone who trained for a few years on the subject,it just means that the trained person is going to have a little more credibility behind what they say.look at me,i just got out of highschool back in may,im as laymen as it gets,but i think i can still put up a good arguement.Self confidence my friend.

Anyway,as for pushing god out of our lives,i dont think i could believe that anyone that really believed in a god would really do such a thing.secondly i dont think ive ever seen someone get up and say "hey god!ya,you,god!stop butting into my life!go away!" The notion of it alone sounds crazy.if by pushing god out of someones life you mean rejecting doctrine,then that makes more sense,but it also doesent make sense at the same time,what need does a business have for religion indoctrination anyway?doesent that just alienate customers and employees that are not of that particular faith or any faith at all?religion is a personal thing,and i hate seeing it trying to mingle with the government and enter peoples lives and schools and what not.it belongs at home or in a church and out of other people's way.what gives someone the right to push their beliefs on someone else?even if this person thinks they are "saving" people its still rather annoying,and moral decisions,unless harmfull to others,should be left to a individual.If god wanted to be a part of people's lives,he would stop messing around and just come out and show himself.if there is a god out there,i get the feeling he doesent actually care if anyone really believes in him or not,and is probably distastefull towards organized religion anyway.I still also think that any sort of god would probably be inherintly evil anyway,if anything for making humans in the first place then leaving them off on their on to wreak havoc on each others lives.

[Child of God] God did come to our world and we murdered Him. He performed many miracles infront of hundreds of witnesses and left records of them but people don't believe them. People have told God to get out of their lives by making Him taboo. We live in a place (both in Canada and the US) where people have openly said they don't believe in God. How else do you tell someone to get out of your life than saying you don't even acknowledge they exist? People openly say we don't need God, that people can do things themselves. (This is something that makes NO sense what so ever considering the state of the world, but that is a seperate topic in itself that maybe we could discuss at a later date.) We have made God a dirty word now, something that isn't talked about in public. That is what religion has made God into.

Maybe that's why God doesn't believe in religion.

Jesus spoke out against religion, He doesn't like it either. Why do you think he rebuked the Pharisee's so much? They were too stuck on their religion that they lost their faith. Jesus never called for religion, only faith. To me, there is a great difference between faith and religion (I'm actually in the middle of a very unpleasant IM conversation with someone on this topic). Religion is man-made; it's fake, a front, it produces hypocrates (sp?) and makes people loose their faith. Religion is taking faith and twisting it for man's use. I don't personally believe in religion. I would argue that faith is the morals, the basis of your beliefs. Faith calls you to practise what you preach, whereas religion only calls you to preach. I don't think it should be that way but that is the way it unfortunently is. Religion is where the doctrins come in, faith is what has been revealed to you, what you believe to be true. Faith doesn't preach with words, it shows with actions. I personally don't believe the Bible should be interpreted, that is how you get extremists, denominational splits, fighting, wars, etc. I would argue that is all caused by religion not faith. If everyone who said they were faithful were truly living by faith, not religion, we wouldn't have as many problems as we do now. But they don't and that is the sad part. How can religion be useful in buisness for example you ask? It can't. How can faith? You treat your customers with respect and honesty, something that is lost in the corporate world (don't even get me started on corporations. I have a rather . . . cynical view of corporations to put it mildly). Do some buisnesses do so without the practise of faith? No, because even if you are an atheist, you have faith in something. Whether it be yourself, the capacity of good in people, etc. There is some type of faith in something. That faith produces a lifestyle. That lifestlye is what we are called to. That's one of the reasons Christains are called to witness to none-believes. Witness, not preach. We are to tell others about Jesus and His love through our lifestlye, not by what we say. Jesus Himself says that. Many people don't I know, but that is what we are called to do. Christains believe that humans are inheritedly (sp?) born evil, it has become genetic. That is because of the fall. (Side note; did you know they apparently identified a gene they believe causes rebelliousness? I'll see if I can find more info on that, since I usually don't pay that much attention to the scientific and medical world, but my mom sent me a small piece that is floating around her college). So, we believe that people began as good then made the decision to fall into sin, making sin genetic throughout the rest of humanity. Whether you want to believe that the fall was caused by a literal fruit or whether the fruit is metaphorical for something else is up to you. Point is God walked with, talked with and provided for humans in the start. Humans decided they didn't need God to tell them what to do so they did their own thing. The result is inherited sinfullness. Even after that, He tried to direct their lives but they didn't want Him to. They wrecked havoc because they chose, and still choose, not to listen to God. Why did God give people the capacity to make that choice? So He would have fellowship not slaves. Why did He want fellowship? Don't know. If I knew that I'd also know why hotdogs come in 10 packs and hotdog buns in 12 packs! My personal view? I believe in aliens. Not perhaps little green men with antenia and lasers but life of some sort other than ours. I believe that after creating all this, He wanted a creation that resembled Himself and that's why it says He created us in His image. 

People reject God all the time and tell them to get out of their lives, their schools, their government, etc. I'm not talking about the doctrines, I'm talking about God Himself. Doctrines are the religion. I'm talking about faith. Many, many people doing every day. The Bible is how we know God and know about God. Personally, I believe that we should talk about God openly without bias, without preaching, just talking about Him then there wouldn't be such taboo on it. We have God labelled, stereotyped so much that we have forgotten who He is and what He calls for. There are many miracles out there that are far from vague. Healings are probably the most prominent but we don't see them in North America anymore. Why? There's no faith! Africa is sending missonaries to Canada and the US! You see healing and miracles on a daily basis in countries where religion is small but faith is huge. They are documented by professionals, analyzed by skeptics and found to be . . . well, miraculous for lack of a better word. Why doesn't it happen here? There is no faith. There's plenty of religion but no faith.

[Sedition] First,before i say anything,i have to state that the very -notion- that god and christianity is taboo in the states is totally and completly luaghable.if your god was so taboo,we wouldnt get the phelps crowds or the helms crowds.if it was taboo there wouldnt be such a fuss from christians about secularist demanding seperation of church and state.if you gathered 10 americans right now,i guarantee you atleast 6 out of 10 will be some sort of christian.As a matter of fact,there was a survey just a few months ago not only measuring faith in this country,but also measuring distrust of minorities.guess who won the title of most mistrusted minority in america?you guessed it;athiest.the day god becomes taboo in any sort of way is the day a republican athiest can win presidency.I'm calling BS on this one.

As pertaining to the arguement, how can someone tell god to get out of their life,if they dont believe he exist becuase there isent sufficient evidence to prove he does?thats like saying "people are telling unicorns to get out of their lives despite the many miracles unicorns bring us like rainbows."

Wanna know why faith is so big in places like africa?becuase if your not their religion and their faith,prepare for some painfull stoning.

I half agree with you on the faith issue in distinguishing it from religion.faith doesent necessarily equal religion as you can have faith in anything and faith is simply believing in something contrary to the lack of evidence to support your belief,a "gut feeling" if you will.however you cant have religion without faith.If you dont believe in the religion and have faith in what it teaches,then,well,your probably not gonna follow it.as for accusing religion of being made by man and 'preaching instead of witnessing' your right,its made up by man,but please tell me the difference between witnessing and preaching.it seems to me you have tangled yourself in definitions.your idea of 'witnessing' is the same thing id call preaching.telling me about jesus and what not?thats preaching.watching something happen?thats witnessing.your idea of witnessing and preaching are one and the same.

And is it just me,or does it not make sense for a god to disappear becuase no one believes he exist?wouldnt make more sense to just,ya know,show up once and awhile?take some pictures of yourself or something?i mean,leave something thats empiriclly evident that you exist.Calling things you cant explain miracles and claiming it as evidence is insane,and if we did that all our lives what kind of scientific progress could we ever hope to make?humans ARE on their own,we DO have to do everything for yourself,and despite your idea of what god wants,it's gonna stay that way.you wanna know why?becuase even if god did exist,what on earth has he actually done to help people?all i see around me is natural disasters,human-cuased crisis,and all other sorts of suffering apon the world.if your god is all powerfull and all knowing,then whats up with that?were is it in the bible that says "god loves you,but he is gonna ditch ya for the next 2000 years becuase you dont believe he exist.have fun and go to hell"?

If we are all born 'evil',then why do we turn good?why do people that have been athiest since birth turn good?since when were morals and ethics genetic?if a pyro-maniac killer has a kid,and that kid is taken away and left to grow up on its own without any outside influence,would the kid be a pyro-maniac killer too?you are starting to make statements that make no sense,are vague,and start to lean towards preach--err,i mean,witnessing.

We all have a right to believe in what we want,and christians have been boo-hoo hooing about it for decades becuase their particular brand of god doesent run everything here in the states.If people choose to believe differently,please dont start blaming any sort of misfortune that happens to them to be some kind of invisible punishment from god.I dont ever remember god protecting me from anything when i was christian;as a matter of fact,my life while a christian was probably the most hellish part of my life ive been through.Ya,i used to beleive in god,i used to 'talk' to him every chance i got when i was alone or with other christians praying,i used to be intensly into it,then i sort of snapped out of it and started asking questions.after that i broke out of the matrix and i can say i really do feel free now.and ive never been happier.

And lastly,before i even forget,i noticed you made a statement about those ever so faithfull africans sending missionaries to the US and Canada.what the heck?ive NEVER seen such a thing,but ive seen quite a few americans doing the exact opposite.those people are starving and dieing and what not and you think they are coming all the way over here to preach to us the good word of allah or whatever pagan gods their tribal life style forces them to beleive?i really have a hard time believing this guy will come knocking to my door to show me the great wonder of Lord Xenu:

[Child of God] No need to get hostile again. I'm not attacking you in any way, shape or form. As to Africans and such sending missionaries here, it's a fact. Many churches recieve missionaries from third-world countries. Just because you haven't seen one doesn't mean they aren't out there. I've met many of them. And yes, God is taboo both in your country and mine. Why do you think there's so much controversy over everything? Just because your country was founded in Christianity doesn't mean it is run by it now. 

I would argree that many people call themselves Christians but when it comes down to it, they aren't in their hearts. I won't judge other people but I will say that people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk cannot be called Christains. They act as though "God" is a dirty word whenever someone talks about Him or are embarassed when their friends say something about their faith. The Christian faith is a lifestyle, not something you can turn on and off at will.

To me, preaching and witnessing are completely different. I would argue that preaching is going around telling people they are going to burn in hell if they don't repent. There's a difference between engaging in a two-way conversation about a topic and one-way preaching. Am I preaching to you? No, I'm defending my faith. You approached me, not the other way around. I'm answering your questions not asking them. I'm not asking you what caused you to turn away from God, trying to psychoanalyze you in any way, telling you about how much God loves you and all that. I'm simply answering questions according to what I believe. That is not preaching. I also try to live my life according to my beliefs. When people ask me how I can handle some of the things in my life, I tell them why. When they ask why I'm so happy and optomistic in otherwise pessimistic circumstances, I can tell them why. Witnessing is trying to act in a way that others can see Christ in you, and approach you, not the other way around.

Also, I never said a particular sin being genetic, just sin period. I would like to make the point I made earlier that the first of modern science was by Christians trying to further discover God's creation and provide proof of God. That is a fact, whether you believe it or not. ALL of them have essays about how it applies to God in a positive way. Don't believe me? Look it up yourself on academic sites, though some of them you may not have access to. I know many of them required passwords my profs had to give me to read, because they were in the archives of other Universities. I'm not going to argue with you about academia. Again, that is above this discussion, this wiki and the participants.

I never said that God disappears because no one believes in Him. I said we don't see His hand in anything anymore because people don't believe in Him. How can God help when we don't ask Him for help? Why should God help if we don't ask Him, especially if we've told Him to stay out of our buisness? That is what our governments are doing, and that is what hundreds of people do on a daily basis. Why should God have to leave emperical evidence? For people to believe Him? Why? I exist, do I have to prove it to other people? God did leave empiracle evidence, we just overlook that evidence. We have creation itself. We see how complicated creation is, from the human eye to gravity to how the universe operates. We have all this evidence but instead is overlooked, is labelled as not sufficient enough. We have to remember that God works not on our scale but on the larger scale. What empirical evidence could He give that people won't somehow dismiss? What? Even if He were (again) to come to earth and walk with us, people would still demand more evidence. He could move mountains and heal all the sick in the world, and people would still dismiss it as something else. There will never be sufficient evidence for the person who doesn't believe due to lack of evidence. What you require is different from what other people require. God never says the Christain life is easy; He tells us it will be harder than the non-Christian life! Did you think He was lying?

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