Are bare breasts nudity?

2005-10-18 [Paul Doyle]: Ah, yes. Breasts. As I recall, that's what this topic was about. Not the Inner Child, or Adolf freakin' Hitler. Or even shrunken-down thumbnails of someone's Andy Warhol-meets-Roy Lichtenstein-meets-Pablo Picasso abstract artwork of mating cows. It was about breasts. Udderly ridiculous to think otherwise :PPP

2005-10-18 [Paul Doyle]: Breasts!

2005-10-18 [Inuzuka Kiba]: ...

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: it's about nudity, are breasts are part of it, why is a side topic so bad then, as i said before.. this discussion wouldn't have even been going on a few years ago, the newer crowd kind of made it come up, maybe breasts can be fully allowed if we can control or adjust that situation/problem

2005-10-18 [Whim]: To truly understand the topic of "breasts", one must search into the psychology of the common person and also observe the reasons for bringing up a topic such as breasts. This topic exists because there is a question of decency among the common person. To answer that question, we must also observe the rules of this site and how they apply to all of us. Breasts, as this page implies, are used simply as a metaphor for freedom and the common person's ability to abuse such freedoms.

2005-10-18 [Whim]: "Ah, yes. Breasts. As I recall, that's what this topic was about. Breasts!" -- Ah, yes, and such is the problem with most communities as a whole. Many people only see in one dimension--black & white. Life, as well as its many topics, is never one dimensional. It is never just black & white. To understand the world, you must dissect the world and see its many many layers. The topic is never about JUST breasts.

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: and yet you first said all nudity allowed or nudity at all, while some people including me do think there is a difference between arrousing/sexual display of breasts and artistic, art is not just an edited image, it is a creation, sometimes that goes too far but in general it's OR an expression OR the result of someones capability of creating beautiful things to look at or read

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: and yes 15y old boys will all say boobs are beautiful to look at but that's not I meant:P

2005-10-18 [Whim]: I know what I said, and I stand by it. If you take into consideration how the community as a whole will respond to artistic nudity, then you'll understand that you can't please everyone and you can't possibly regulate artistic nudity. However, you can regulate ALL nudity because there's a universally static perception of nudity. However, artistic nudity is only artistic if the viewer believes it to be so. And since we have like 5,000 or so viewers, you can't possibly expect them to all agree that something is artistic. So as far as rules go, you can only fairly and consistantly regulate laws which are based on static perceptions.

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: as far as I see it it is indeed as you said very important to be consistant in your rules but I also think there are some art pieces that clearly arent pornographic, further then that you can get mature people to judge on wether to allow or not, itll get some angry faces but that's obviously happening whatever choice you make about this subject, you can also put that sort of art in closed wiki's like skydancer does, or work on a rating system that allows you to add and view certain kinds of images, it isn't necesary to keep it THAT black and white, I certainly hope other options will be seriously considered because I do not want to lose my right of admire any kind of art.

2005-10-18 [Whim]: Actually you just touched on a potentially very good system. A rating system for pictures and maybe even other content. If a function could be made to block wikis and pictures of a certain rating automatically so that the only people allowed to see the wikis would be authorized or of age people, then that would solve a lot of problems, I think. A rating system would definitely do a lot for the community.

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: and also people who do not wish to see such images because of believe or just because they don't like nudity;), it is a goal to reach too since us members have a privilege that allows us things (like uploading images directly to wiki's) it can also allow us to see certain things and give access to areas and pages

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: what if it became a privilege? it's kind of nice to think about that I think, what if crew members can decide if you are mature enough to do it just like uploading image privilege, that way people like skydancer and you and me and plenty of other people will again form a group of artists without having the wrong people there.

2005-10-18 [Whim]: could work that way. I just think the artist community needs to not rely on the guards and such to give them an artist community. The artists need to branch off within Elftown and form a sort of sub-community of their own because so far, the guards and council have not succeeded in making elftown more appealing to artists, in my opinion.

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: that is true, artists and writers, the members of this community, they make and break it, but the guards and council do play a big supportive role as in making up events and making sure members are protected to a certain line, members can make friends and go to forums but if they get ideas to get rid of nasty people they will need to go to the supportive people to suggest it, I personally think a mute button is great, muted people that don't know they are muted leave out of themselves much faster then just banning them.

2005-10-18 [Whim]: The guards and council have these abilities, yes, but it's hard to see where they're actually benefiting the community. It seems more like they're just pissing off the trouble makers at times rather than actually accomplishing anything. I know they mean well, and they do their best, but look around. Has it gotten better or has it gotten worse since Elftown first opened?

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: mmhmm, banning them might get them to make a new account and get more annoying, if you IP ban them they might mail saying it was their little brother and still getting away with it.. but how to make a good solution, you can't really fix the problem that forms and it is getting bigger day by day, someone else said to make it more like elfwood, go through a bit of trouble to show your dedication in order to become a member, I forgot her name for a second but it might be a good idea to prevent elftown from too much growth of those people in the future

2005-10-18 [Whim]: I wouldn't do too much to prevent people from joining. I just think there needs to be a seperation created that keeps the artists amongst their own kind. Not sure how it would happen. Going back to that rating system, I think it would be one of the best ways to start making a difference.

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: it'd certainly be a good option to discuss for the crew, as for joining people, it won't prevent artists from joining if it means they have to submit art or literature.. they probably came to show that anyway;), I don't know if you have applied for elfwood in the past but it can be a pain in the ass, but the site is SO big and so much art and artists and stories and poetry, if you really are an artist you will go through the drill, if you just came to bug people or flash boobies then you come across a problem most of those people dont want to bother for since there are plenty of sites out there..

2005-10-18 [Whim]: Yeah, but in that case, why not just have artists stick with Elfwood? Elfwood is strictly for artists. Truthfully, Elftown should not be JUST for artists. It just needs to be more dignified. It needs to be a place for creative minds and fans of creative minds to gather easily. If you make it hard to get in like Elfwood, then you're just making another Elfwood. Elftown should remain easily accessible. It just maybe shouldn't be quite so easy to succeed at lowering the level of decency during your stay here.

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: but, elftown is the community of elfwood.. elfwood isn't a community but a site to display fantasy art and literature, the only way of talking there is emailing the artist or commenting on a drawing, probably the reason this community was created at first.

2005-10-18 [Whim]: well, either way, I think that trying to do something like that would involve starting over completely...meaning wiping Elftown out and just rebooting. Otherwise you'd have to ban or delete about 4,000 or so members because there's really only a handful of artists with work to prove they're an artist.

2005-10-19 [Aidan Ryuko]: or you just say they are lucky and leave it at that untill they do something messed up like trying to cyber people, you do give a point there though "there's really only a handful of artists with work to prove they're an artist." a lot of people like art or are creative in another way, nothing is wrong with that.. but it does make it harder to get a good set of rules..

2005-10-19 [zip]: I don't like this talk of seperating the community into artists and non artists.. who decides which members are"worthy" and which are not?

2005-10-19 [Aidan Ryuko]: worthy of seeing artistic nudity as in mature, isn't it very clear which people can't handle artistic nudity?

2005-10-19 [Aidan Ryuko]: at least that's how I see it.. maybe giving a privilege to people who seem mature enough to see nudity without going crazy can make this site to keep all art and maybe even reduce a bit of the cybering type of people, no one should ever decide wether someone is artistic or not since that's very individual, itd also lose a lot of openness of what makes this community so good, but discretion with nudity isnt bad

2005-10-19 [Whim]: zip, seperating the community like that would be something the artists would do themselves. There wouldn't be a clear line of seperation. There would just be enough to help keep the wrong people out of the hair of other people. These new "artist" areas would be pretty easily accessible by anyone who wants in, but the idea is to create an environment within Elftown where those who are interested will actually take the effort to get into and those who aren't interested will go about their merry way of cybering eachother in the "slums" of Elftown.

2005-10-19 [Kitsune Arashi]: But we shouldn't have 'slums' to begin with. It's still so sad that we have to designate a section for artists and writers and allow the sickos take over the rest. *cry,cry* Whatever happened to the old elftown?!?!

2005-10-19 [Whim]: The same thing that happens to nearly every society ever created. It starts out with good ideas and good people, but eventually, everyone wants a piece of the utopia. The rich get richer and poor get poorer.

2005-10-20 [Paapuu]: I still have not had my issue clearified. Apparently we are complaining about breasts being on Elftown, but for years now Gaurds and others have had art, such as a character and there were breast. Calico Tigers character had visible breast. So apparently we have the nudity of artistic breast already. My idea is just take off pictures where people are FLASHING their breast. Even in a lot of photos there are breast...someone just standing there for instance. And it clearly states that any perverts shall be removed from elftown, so if someone can not follow the rules that's their problem. I say if Hedda wants to ban them, let him. It's his elftown that he shares

2005-10-20 [Paapuu]: You see, the wrong doers of the crime that braught this all about have it in their minds that they can do what ever they want because the signed up...So, it is those wrong doers who we need to get rid of. We should just get rid of them and send them a little email saying that we did so. That's what I say at least. And don't give me that "Oh, that's so mean" or "Oh, they probably think that their picture was art" because thats BS. It's easy to see what is art and not when it comes to photography. And if you want to take it another step, Hedda should put a link to two picture on the rules wiki showing what HE thinks is art photography and what isn't. It's his choice

2005-10-20 [Aidan Ryuko]: but, that's your line of what is going too far in nudity,, maybe I will think it's still absolutely fine if a girl lays down on a bed or resting her chest on a counter to get some sort of photo-artistic effect with a bit of sexyness-of-the-unseen through it, in A LOT of contests nudity is allowed as long as it is tastefull, why is that line specificly at flashing boobs..

2005-10-20 [Paul Doyle]: What's your point [Paapuu]? you've been going on and on here and there for pages now, without proving anything, and not giving incisive, plausible viewpoints as the rest of the repeat commenters have done ^_^

2005-10-20 [Aidan Ryuko]: paapuu's point is that we should simply erase all members that go too far and to put up an example of what crosses the line from artistic to porn (correct me if im wrong) and it's a pretty good point but the definitions aren't there, you can't say on your own where the line is, a mayor poll wouldnt help either since the quantity of non mature people is most likely bigger then the group this community is meant for, for now it's a good thing to think about other options and if we do get a line how we will define that

2005-10-21 [Calico Tiger]: Btw, if you read the Uploading Art Rules, you'll see that a lot of the nudity definition and minor has been clarified more :)

2005-10-21 [Paapuu]: What do you mean, [Paul Doyle]? What do you not get about me saying that people are complaining that pictures are being taken off yet there is atill art up with breast. What do you not udnerstand about that. Where have I not given proof? Where has anyone else given more? What is your point in this conversation, [Paul Doyle]...To me it seems you are trying to fight with people and I do not appreciate that. THank you.

2005-10-21 [Paapuu]: Why are you defensive? Is that what you like to do. You are placing me on a edge that I do not want to be standing on. Please, calm down and let me speak my opinion, that is what the rest of us are doing. If I offended you the point that you would try to opffend me, as you have, then I appologize. 

2005-10-21 [Paapuu]: Back to the discussion, in my opinion, Paul....I agree with [Aidan Ryuko], and she is right in her...or his..sorry...explaination on my point... I say that if people are arguing as to what is and is not tasteful or tasteless, then [Hedda] should give us his example of what he thinks is tasteless and what is art being that it is his elftown that we use. So, Paul, where do you think I will find independant proof for that. It's an opinion, not a fact. There is only proof for facts. Sorry I could not do more for you. I had thought my first explaination was pretty....clear.

2005-10-21 [Paapuu]: [Calico Tiger] just showed me the new uploading art rules and this is what caught my eye and could probably be your proof, Paul. "Non-pornographic nudity is allowed provided no minors are involved. Elftown is a site for all ages, so keep it tasteful. You can request Artistic Nudity Warnings if your want to post nudity in your house."...This is what it says and it even has a link for more information...A very smart moved in my opinion.

2005-10-21 [Paul Doyle]: Ah, OK ^_^ Thanks

2005-10-21 [Paul Doyle]: I made my point pages ago, regarding underage nudity, etc. Now I'm just watching *shrugs*

2005-10-21 [Paul Doyle]: I'm just wondering why you're trying to prove to people things which don't need to be proven, because they're proven already.

2005-10-21 [Aidan Ryuko]: I'm a "HIS explanation" thank you, paul if you think paapuu is going on about things he already said several times, that will be because no one really seems to hear it, no one really applied to it, paapuu you could send hedda himself a message with several nude drawings or photo's and ask him where the line is if you want to proof it, but that still doesn't have anything to do with wether it's the right decission to do it this way or not, you'd have to tell us why that way is best, saying it's hedda's site isn't a very good reason since it's a community for the members

2005-10-21 [Paul Doyle]: Reinventing the wheel is generally a useless endeavor. Same thing applies to artistic nudity. I've nothing more to say.

2005-10-21 [~Elvin Enchantres~]: hey stop arguing i agree with paapuu

2005-10-21 [Whim]: The biggest problem with ANY rule about artistic nudity is the phrase "non-pornograpic nudity." People consider different things to be porn. Some of your more traditional--or even anal--citizens might consider a low-cut shirt to be borderling pornographic due to excessive amounts of cleavage. So if breasts are exposed, many people consider that to be pornographic--even if still tastefully pornographic. From what I can tell, the only thing seperating art from porn in the minds of the common person is facial expressions. If a woman sits nude with an indifferent look on her face or maybe even a bored or possibly sad face, you'd probably call that art.

2005-10-21 [Whim]: If a girl sits nude with a sexy smirk on her face and licking her lips sensually, you'd probably think of that as porn. So, ironically, it's not the nudity that stirs up all these harsh feelings. It's the facial expressions. That basically means that anyone displaying a seductive facial expression is showing pornographic imagery. Which also means that a sad person can get away with nudity, but a sexy one can't. Before anyone refutes that theory, take a moment to think about it. Think about the facial expressions in every art piece you've ever seen and think about the expression in any porn piece you've seen.

2005-10-22 [Paapuu]: I really agree with you there , [Whim]...you are right. It is the facial expression. It is all how you express it..Which brings me to a new point about "body language" as well, you know. But truley, I do agree with you there. There is definitly a difference between the two expressions. I would place pictoral examples but a gaurd has asked me not to do so anymore. 

2005-10-22 [Whim]: Right, so the question is, how do you justify allowing nudity with one facial expression, but not another? Really, you can't fairly enforce such a rule--which just leads back to my original point that you really have to either allow all boobs, or no boobs at all.

2005-10-22 [Aidan Ryuko]: uhm, but that doesn't really apply to half the art anyway, even if you do define facial expressions, if someone makes a closeup of flashing the boobs you only see the boobs and the sweater you know, maybe you can see 2 smiley faces in it, but the image is pretty much pornographic nudity to me;), the rating system seems to be the best global system to apply, you can even give people the option to mute people that use lets say rate 3, just because you dont want to be bothered by people who go there to watch cyber, you would miss out on some good people but youd get rid of a big group of bad ones too:)

2005-10-22 [small and mighty]: If a gal has a close up of just her boobs or just her genitals..thats kind of well ick. or if shes just there with a 'comhither look' and sticking her boobs out it shouldnt be allowed.however if shes sitting.draped.or at least not spreadeagled and a having a 'comehitherlook'its fine to me.im assuming almost everyone who is part of elftown knows about elfwood.there are rules to uploading nude drawings why shouldnt those same rules apply here???you couldnt draw and elf or barmaid flashing her chest and having that sexy look on her face why be allowed to have real photos like that here?

2005-10-22 [Whim]: Ok, so basically what you're telling me is that boobs are allowed as long as they aren't the only thing in the picture and as long as the girl isn't enjoying her nudity or appearing to be sexy. So as long as the girl doesn't turn anyone on and as long as you can see her face, it should be allowed? The rating system is good and I agree with it somewhat, but it still doesn't address the complexity of the rules you're trying to explain to me.

2005-10-22 [Whim]: And of course genitalia isn't allowed--we're just talking about breasts. I'm just still trying to figure out what the big artistic difference is between this "come hither look" and a look of sadness or boredom or something else that just isn't sexy. If they can't have a sexy expression while they're naked, why should we allow it when they're clothed? At this point, you're telling me that anyone who makes too many people horny should be disciplined.

2005-10-22 [Aidan Ryuko]: that rating system is still very open, if we would decide that you need a certain rate to see artistic nudity then a big majority of the group that cybers would go there because they do not want to miss out and go there, so then we could say, get a blocking system for rates, if you don't wish to receive messages from a rate 3-er then you block that rate, however do not ever allow porn to be between that, if its not tastefull just erase it, in the past if someone placed a very undelightfull image it has been erased as well and the member warned, there might not be a clear line but it would not be as bad as it is now since only a group can see it, however there are problems you get when you do

2005-10-22 [Aidan Ryuko]: that, you could block your friends on accident, not every person that looks around on members houses and wiki's with nudity are perverted, I'd probably get the rate myself even if I never ever watch one of the pages, just want that option to be open, the second thing you could do is give members an individual ratement to their desires, someone can apply to a wiki or one of a little group of people to ask for privilege with rate 3 or however it will be named, if that person is mature enough to handle this kind of art you can give him or her the privilege, it keeps unwanted and immature people out and you can always remove the privilege if the person behaves like a retard afterwards,

2005-10-22 [Aidan Ryuko]: it also has the good side that the artists that show nudity are better protected! a very good side effect, what'd you say if we keep the line inside the more protected area at 'bare breasts are okay but not further then that', keep it to breasts..

2005-10-22 [Whim]: 'bare breasts are okay, but not further than that' -- Yeah, that's kind of what I've been saying all along...hehe.

2005-10-22 [Aidan Ryuko]: well with a rating system it'd get a bit more discretion so it can get a bit more slack then how it is now

2005-10-22 [Whim]: actually, there's a good bit of slack as it is right now. I think as long as you're not an ass about it, you can have all the naked boobies on your house that you want.

2005-10-22 [small and mighty]: what i was saying is girls shouldnt just be sticking their chests out for the sake of having people see them for the 'sexy' part.and that the whole'comehither'look is fine if its not just a gal pulling her shirt up for all too see.go to my elfwood page..ive got nudity there..had to use myself in the pic with teh elf gal holdin a flamey thingy..(heh)couldnt get the shading on teh nips right.thats called artistic nudity..but a gal just showing off her boobs by holding up her shirt...thatsnot art...

2005-10-22 [small and mighty]: i was actually thinking about having apic taken of me and putting it in a wiki but i dont think i could get my bf to take a couple...LOL it would cause him great distress.hes not totally confortable with nudity

2005-10-22 [Aidan Ryuko]: or the fact you want him to be the one taking the pictures you would show over the internet for everyone to see:P not the most fun thing to do for a boyfriend, it would be nice if council members where giving some feedback about this

2005-10-22 [zip]: I've only ever seen one house that had a picture of a girl just "holding her shirt up", are there really a lot of cases of this?

2005-10-23 [Skydancer]: Actually we do have wiki's here that are restricted to adults only and also private wiki's which are viewable only by invitation so it is not necessarily that someone would be doing nudes for everyone on the internet to see. Just to be accurate.

2005-10-23 [small and mighty]: Aidan Ryuko...no he wouldnt like that part either!!!! to zip...ive seen a few yeah i know skydancer...lol im part of spadnaa.lol just have to upload a few pics..well drawings lol not actual pics..i hope those are ok????two of them are in my elfwood if anyone would like to look and comment???:):)

2005-10-23 [Skydancer]: Art, be it photos or otherwise are of course welcome.

2005-10-23 [Mr. Gentleman]: Hmm......I got a question: When did all the horny teenagers start coming to the site? I always owner how an art forum turns into a teen-cyber-paradise.....

2005-10-23 [zip]: Don't forget the 20 something turks trying to pick up underage girls.

2005-10-23 [small and mighty]: To Diago and Zip- :\ dunno...bleh.as to the teenagers..i have a drawing of a naked drow in my elfwood gallery and a prson either left the same comment twice or two little idiots left the comment 'humps her' *hisssssssssss* eh i actually changed the description on her hehehe.told people to stop leaving childish comments on my pics.

2005-10-23 [Paapuu]: See, thi site is noit a teen cyber paradise because you will pretty much get that anywhere you go no matter what the site is when it envolves a community setting. See, really this site is not going down the hill, but even though we do get tennants that are a little "unallowed", the real thing about this site are the artist...and if you will notice that artists get noticed by Elftown all of the time. People who donate art to competitions, to elftown it's self, they get badges and recognition. Even people who write really good poetry get recognized and their poems, in most cases are displayed on the main page for all to see...

2005-10-23 [Paapuu]: So I do not think that the problem is that Efltown is becoming a different type of site that it is supposed to be, because it is not at all. Even with the "featured members"...you don't ever get members who are just sexy looking on that part, you always...always get the individuals who have done a lot of art, who have well balanced pages, and who are generally respected individuals for their artistic contrabutions and I believe that Elftown is still wonderful because it DOES ignore the rude, discusting ones and really focuses on the individuals that DO belong here. So, like I said before, you will always get the bad ones and in good cases you get more good ones then bad...

2005-10-23 [Paapuu]: It's always going to be that way. So we shouldn't go about harrasing the harrasers are the gaurds about how we want the harrasers of art of the site because typically, untill they show their faces there is nothing one can really do about it without looking like an ass. And on another point, if you love elftowen then keep on loving it...Donate, and then maybe [Hedda] will actually have enough money to get the technology to place the ratings, you know? If you want to keep Elftown a more artistic place, donate your art, no matter how bad you might think it looks. Compete in compatitions no matter how the competitors compare. 

2005-10-23 [Paapuu]: If you want to keep elftown elftown for you, then always only think of it as elftown...block those individuals who bother you and if someone else does not block that same individual then don't worry because obviously they are not as bothered by that individual as you are. Maybe something might look terrible to you where as to someone else it looks great. Basically, to round it up, just follow the rules and if others break them, report them once and then forget it. You see them again then donj't let it bother you. Keep drawing and blah blah blah. You know? Hehe

2005-10-24 [Kitsune Arashi]: That makes sence, but if they continue to bother people, I don't think it's very fair that they can continue to do so. I have blocked all people that have bothered me, but now I can't even put a picture up with out some stupid, horny, males saying 'hey your hot, wanna cyber?'. Certainly, some would take this as a compliment, but they do it to anyone, so long as they have a picture up. Why do we have to change our restrictions and such, when they are the ones corrupting this perfectly mature site.

2005-10-24 [Paapuu]: Well, basically you play a good note but the idea is that there really, truelly is nothing you can do about it except block them. The gaurds can not go around banning individuals just because they are horney. The only way someone can ban someone is to break the rules. If they went around and banned everyone who someone had a complaint about then elftown would not be a community anymore. See, I know you aare bothered and so is everyone else but the real thing is about the breast on elftown in mostly photography. The thing is is that is individuals will follow the rules of Uploading Art, then there would be no problems, really. The rules are pretty percise and to the point.

2005-10-24 [Aidan Ryuko]: "The gaurds can not go around banning individuals just because they are horney" why not? I'm horny too sometimes but I don't harrass random girls on elftown to try and get satisfied, there's nothing wrong with being horny but there is with lack of respect, they dont respect the people they try to cyber with or give them any value/credit, they treat them like they are a porn video, try and get yourself done and then throw away the video till they are horny again, then they go find other victims, as for elftown.. it's very nicely said that elftowns core really is based on artistic people and they reward those people in several ways, but this community is still inhabited by thousands of

2005-10-24 [Aidan Ryuko]: members, you can't get around it.. and you can't just have a good time if you have to sort your messages into junk mail and normal mail, it is not fun if half of your messages are from horny turks and 15y old boys that need to get laid, other then that they can be incredibly annoying.. it just ruins your mood if you log on elftown and the first message you get is "suck me you bitch!" or even the not so rude messages, a friend of mine blocks EVERY person who tries to cyber and harras her, but yet she still has to fill up her page with anti cyber banners and texts and all because she keeps getting bothered, and another thing, the technology for a rating system is already there..

2005-10-24 [Aidan Ryuko]: Hedda can always use money offcourse, hardware and bandwidth are important things but the rating system is possible.. not necesarily to be applied but it's possible, "but the idea is that there really, truelly is nothing you can do about it" we think about sollutions, paapuu.. there are answers, and plenty of members that want to help improve, itll work out one way or another, its not that impossible at all.

2005-10-24 [Kitsune Arashi]: Sorry, but I was questioning the 'horny turks'. What is the deal with that? I have a friend on here from there and he is very nice and fun to talk to, but then all of a sudden there's this big group of turks that just can't leave me alone.

2005-10-24 [Skydancer]: I am not really clear about the influx of some groups of people, but I suspect just from experience in other communites that several things can happen. One is that a student at a school gets into elftown from their school or local library and tells all their friends about the "cool, cyber dating, naked photos and art, wicked site" that they found, then suddenly we have a group from that area jump on. Another is a similar situation where you have cyber cafe's that have people just cruising the internet looking for any place they can find "entertainment" and they find elftown and tell every one in the cafe to come look at what they have found, and so on.

2005-10-24 [zip]: I know that thare are a lot of little schoolchild groups tha come on here for a month or so then vanish, you see those all the time, usually with the rest of their group on their page as the only content besides the endless ASCII art they didn't draw and the stupid sex poems.

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: I truelly understand yoiur anger, Ryoko, but there are a set of rules the gaurds them selves have to follow, I am sure. And I bet a million (not really) that there is a rules that as long as the elftowners follows the set of rules set by elftown then there is not lay way for banning, you know? I know you feel disrespected and such but so do I. The only thing we can do about that is to ignore them, black them, or tell them off and thenb blcok them...Make them just as mad as you are if you want to. But until someone breaks the rules they can't really get into trouble. They should have a rule against harrasment, such as "Don't be an asshole, don't harass".

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: See, with a rule like that then the "flirt button" would have more of a meaning. See. 

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: I understand where all of you are coming from. But really, what you are speaking of...THe buttons to turn off and on a member for yourself, a rating system. This all requires a lot of time. Someone could say their page is a good number 1 with no graphics of "interest" yet in reality they do. So then we say the gaurds should rate the houses. But again, this takes a lot of time and money. It is very difficult to bann every meber someone else has a "problem with" Ryoko. I know you feel that because you are aggitated with them is grounds for them to be banned, but I'm aggitated with a lot of people too, but that does not mean I can bann them, let alone request them to be banned.

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: Really, this conversation is about wether or not have breast on elftown. Now, like I said before if you read the Uploading Art rules, then you will see that it specifies that nudity is alright as long as it is tasteful. And of course if someone doesn't know what "tasteful" is, then they should ask [Hedda] for his opinion on the peice before applying it to their page. Some people just want a reason to argue. They will place art on their page that they KNOW is tasteless and then once it is taken off they complain. But it really is not their choice...it's the choice of Hedda and the Gaurds...So, if everyone will understand that I think that it will be okay. 

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: On another point. Have any of you had naked art on your houses to arouse these perverts? Because if you have not then there is no real reason to complain about them here. And if you are arguing about it for someone else then there is no reason, because if someone gets those comments because of their naked art and are not bothered by it then nor should anyone else. Others art is their business and no one elses.

2005-10-25 [Jay Ladlehaus]: Unless of course it wanders past the vague and murkey line known as "decency." Then it becomes everyone's business.

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: What do you mean? If someone enjoys the person harrassing them, or for that matter if the person just does not care, wether you might think it decetn or not, it is not anyone else problem besides the individual making his or her own choice. Again, though, explain to me what you mean. Why do you think anyones choice to deal with someone to be your problem too?

2005-10-25 [Aidan Ryuko]: if you mean me, my name is Ryuko thank you, guards CAN do a thing, in fact there is a secret service on elftown that can monitor messages of "suspects" so if that person sends perverted messages and harrasses people then those people can give the proof needed to ban, rating houses does not cost money unless you count your monthly internet connection bill costing money.. but it really just is a choice you make to be a council member or a guard so i doubt any of them will see it that way, rating can make people unable to see artistic nudity with rate 1 so a huge group of perverts gets group 3, itd make it possible for people to block out that group, they cant SAY they are rate 1

2005-10-25 [Aidan Ryuko]: another option is giving people the privilege to be able to see that kind of nude-art, making it illegal for normal people to display or see it, it would most likely help a lot in getting elftown back, as for being agitated not being a reason to get them banned, people do not agitate me for no reason.. if they harras my friends hell yeah I will be agitated by them, I've been referring people to guards to help them against these kind of people for a good amount of months now, elftown's council has it's job to keep it's members safe and feel good, they are doing a good job too, with love.. how can you ignore all those people and just say to put your hand down and accept this community is

2005-10-25 [Aidan Ryuko]: turning bad, how can you say that if you have naked art on your house that isnt meant to arouse people that you cannot complain if people DO bug you in a bad way, mature people don't send perverted messages to those people, as for the rating system.. if you think it's hard and taking long, I hereby volunteer;) in the weekends i have quite a few hours on the internet and throughout the week i can be on every evening, I put in my best efforts to make elftown better for everyone that likes fantasy and art

2005-10-25 [Jay Ladlehaus]: [Paapuu] - I was referring to the topic at hand, which is artistic nudity not harassment. Please modify your comments if you want me to respond.

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: [Jay Ladlehaus], I do not think my comment was to you but to Ryuko. Sorry for the mistake. Other then that If you really think, Ryuko, that people WANT you to go around and fight for them if they are being harrased, then you are wrong. I get harrased by people saying I'm cute and they want to cyber. My way of dealing with it is first telling them no thankyou and if they do it again I block them. If your friends do not know how to block a member it is quite simple. Go to the members house and on the house is a button at the top calle d"block this member"...You press it and TAHDAH, you never have to worry about them again. 

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: Now, if someone bothers you then so be it, deal with it in your own way. But please, not to be mean, but analytical...I do not think that yuou should feel the need to fight for those you don't know because you are bothered by thwe things people say to them...You know what I mean? Now, back to nudity on elftown, [Jay Ladlehaus], there is already nudity on elftown. There si already a law about uploading nude are on elftown. So really, the only other complaint people seem to have is how to KNOW when someone has nude art on their page. That, too has been taken care of with the Secrect Service messages on top of peoples pages. So, now there is the question of this rating system. 

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: Like I said before, tghat system has obvious faults because someone can say they rate at 2 or 1 and yet they are typoically rated as a 5 or even a 10. So really, the gaurds and secret service have taken care of the "I don't know if this person has nude on their page" problem with the messages on top of peoples pages. You're issue, as I understand it is that people harras or might harras those people. So, if those people have a problem with it they can deal with it themselves and there is really no need for you to get into their business. Sorry to say that,

2005-10-25 [Jay Ladlehaus]: There is a need for us to get into their business if they choose to involve us. Don't forget the number one rule here in Elftown. People have the right to be unharassed here and if others choose to violate that, it becomes our business when the reports start getting sent.

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: Yes, of course, that is what I am speaking about. If they ASK you to help, then so be it...BUT, if they don't ask for help and deal with it themselves and that's their problem how they wish to do it. Is that more lcear for you?

2005-10-25 [Jay Ladlehaus]: With the additional qualification that you added, yes. Of course, there is always the matter of minors and people not wishing to view the material in question. Given that, it becomes necessary to create the ETSS script over house presentations to preemptively stop preventable issues from arising.

2005-10-25 [Paapuu]: Persicely!

2005-10-26 [Aidan Ryuko]: you aren't the only person that gets bothered paapuu, why do you think there are wiki's like "keep elftown shallow free" or "take back elftown" or that sort of wiki's, you can handle blocking them but you can't handle the flow that streams at you, keeping to try and cyber or harras in other disgusting ways, I do feel the need to stand up about these issues because very nice people are being hurt this way, if you think that's non of my bussiness or that no one likes me doing it then your analytic skills could use some polishing, you don't understand the rating? if you know the elftown privileges you know you can be denied or accessed to certain areas and certain tools like wiki upload,

2005-10-26 [Aidan Ryuko]: then lets say you need rate 3 to see nude art and rate 4 to see art and be outside of the blocking area so if you are mature enough you can still talk to people with nude art because they mightve blocked the rate 3 group for their pervertness.. people would be assigned a basic privilege which they can ask to enhance to a higher level, if someone blocks out rate 3 then that rate can't talk to that person.. he or she can say hes rate 2 but that message will be auto-muted for the receiver.. so whats the flaw in that? other then that, let people ask for rates and for artistic nudity upload privilege, biggest time consuming thing left will be looking at who already has nudity, after that you can

2005-10-26 [Aidan Ryuko]: just apply it to the rules to please report anyone showing nudity while the person who reported might be only rate 2 (and shouldnt see it), what is the flaw about that system? (ps. "...BUT, if they don't ask for help " THEY DO!)

2005-10-26 [Okami]: what if one's friends are rated lower, and though they shouldn't see the nudity, one still wishes to talk to them. . .?? (although i guess if they still wished to talk, they might as well be a higher number anyway?? would this apply to age? or just maturity level. . . cause maturity level would rock, but not being able to talk to my younger friends wouldn't be pleasant.)

2005-10-26 [Aidan Ryuko]: yes that's something that really is a problem, can we privilege people to seeing images or whole pages.. if it's just images that aren't watchable for lower rate it wouldn't be a problem, otherwise.. hmm..otherwise you could always place pictures in a wiki as a sacrifice so you can still talk to your friends I guess, not the best solution possible though but it'd be pretty much the same as it is now, and another thing.. if it was for me to choose and we had a rating system itd be maturity, some people, even if they are just 13, are very mature.. they handle things really well, I dont know how other people or the law think about that, but I think peoples ages dont tell enough about maturity

2005-10-26 [Aidan Ryuko]: I wonder.. what the basic lvl 3 rate would be based on, maturity or age.. and even more interesting, if you need to be 16 for rate 3.. and someone of 13y old is a very mature boy or girl, could he or she get rate 4;) overruling rate 3

2005-10-26 [Okami]: maturity is definately the way to go, but judging maturity is challenging, as immature people can act mature to pass the test and then be.. well. . . i think ye see how that goes??

2005-10-26 [Aidan Ryuko]: well it often isn't that hard to see by the way they write and act in comment boxes.. and also their pages often say more then words, you could kind of make a resemblence between this "test" and the daily poem page, you get a chance but if you are totally neglecting the rules then you will lose the privilege again, in poetry corner people can be banned from that page if they neglect all the rules and it seems to keep the poetry page from too much chaos

2005-10-26 [Okami]: aaah ok, that sounds good.

2005-10-27 [Paapuu]: Ryuko, the flaw, as stated before is that if what I understand is correct, you are speaking of a rating system that is similar to the species system. If I'm correct, this rating system you speak of can be chosen by the user just like they choose their species be it Elf, Orc, or Duck, right? Well, the flaw lies in the fact that just as easily as a person who is more like a duck can choose to be an elf, then that same person can be a rate 6 and choose to be a rate 1.Or vise versa. So basically a rate 1 for young person or a pervert can say they are rate 6 to enter the nude art and decieve the community by rating himself 6 when he is a 1. Do you understand?

2005-10-27 [Paapuu]: And if you are speaking of a test, then it would be very simple for someone to test mature on an act where as they really are not. So, yes, there are flaws. And the other flaw with the rating system as you speak of it (rate 1's can not speak to rate 5's) then, as Okami stated it would prevent young friends from speaking to others. 

2005-10-27 [Aidan Ryuko]: well you could apply it as in.. you choose an image so other people can easily see what rate you are off but with this system the rates would have an actual effects, elftown species do not as far as I know, most immature people have an immature page or behave that way.. and even if it lets in a few bad ones, the big groups are still gone most likely.. and that's already a lot:) I think it would be a very big step closer to being able to be yourself as an artist again without people harassing you untill you just end up removing any images, the thing I wonder.. if you understand the idea of blocking whole rates, why do you think people can just say they are a rate..

2005-10-27 [Aidan Ryuko]: offcourse a rate 3 could tell someone hes a rate 1 but if that person blocked out rate 3 he cant talk to that person in the first place you see? the rate would work like elftown privilege, higher rate, more to see, even higher and you come to the mature people level, you can't fake it's effects, you can say you are rate 3 while you are rate 1 for real but that person still wont see nudity so if its a perv he or she will most likely still try to get rate 3 then.. I hope I explained it clear enough

2005-10-27 [Paapuu]: Well, we still encounter the same problem. Alot of people will just choose to be raet 6, or the highest rate so they won't have to be blocked or unallowed to do things, you see? So, again it is still fawlty. And I know that the speciues choice does not really effect anything, but

2005-10-27 [Paapuu]: Well, we still encounter the same problem. Alot of people will just choose to be raet 6, or the highest rate so they won't have to be blocked or unallowed to do things, you see? So, again it is still fawlty. And I know that the speciues choice does not really effect anything, but just like people casn choose to be an elf instead of a halfling, as they should because halfling matches their personallity rather then elf, it would be the same with the rates. People will most likely choose the highest rate to gain all priviledge even though they are technically not that rate, you see?

2005-10-27 [Aidan Ryuko]: for the higher rates we will have judges same as the upload privilege, you cant just choose to have that privilege.. I already explained that in former messages you know.

2005-10-27 [Paapuu]: Oh, whoops. Must not have gotten it. So you are speaking of maybe have gaurds interview the new comers and choose what rate they should be...or something?

2005-10-27 [Whim]: They'd have to earn respect, basically. Age would be a factor as well, I think. People would probably have to be here a certain amount of time before they could ask a guard for higher rank. If someone with higher rank abused their rank, they'd probably be demoted rather than banned.

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: And the other thing about getting a gaurds "approval" would be just that. We'd have to seriously kiss some arse to get the gaurds to like us enough to get that rank. I don't think anyone here should have to go through that kind of crap. I certainly would hate to have to kiss arse for a long time to get what I want or to be able to be treated like an adult. Really, would you? Really? Would you want to kiss some persons dirty, overpowering arse (no offence) is order to be treated like an adult? I sure as hell would not. So, if we are talking about gaurds giving the priviledges according to interviews then forget that! If we start doing that then I'm outta here! That would just SUCK! 

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: I have gone through the "Do we gaurds like you or not" bull, and I would really not like to go through that again. I wanted to be part of the White Rabbit Society. I think I'm pretty mature for that...And then they made me go through the "Do we like you are not" and OH MY! Please, do not make ANYONE have to go through THAT for ALL OF ELFTOWN! PLEASE...Really...please....don't...just don't. I mean...not have the "priviledge" to look at cetain pages and certain art because some pompous (no offence) thinks you're not mature enough? That would piss SO many people off. I really don't think we should have the gaurds judge rather or not someone is mature...really. So, again...another flaw.

2005-10-28 [Whim]: Well, first off, it's not about kissing ass. It's about following the rules. If this "kiss ass" element would be as bad as you say, then it's just as bad now, I think. Guards will still ban you if they don't like you. With this ranking system, instead of banning people, they could just drop a person's rank which would make it to where they can't do nearly as much harm to the people who aren't breaking the rules. Will there be guards who abuse their power? Of course. But there are probably guards abusing their power now, so really, what's the difference?

2005-10-28 [Whim]: And I don't think it would be about interviews. That would be too much work. You'd probably automatically gain rank after like a couple of weeks of causing no trouble. So if you don't bother the guards, then the guards can't possibly bother you.

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: The differenc is that we doin't really have to worry about them abusers because as long as we don't do anything to get their attention then we're okay. Where as with the rating system we actually HAVE to deal with the gaurds. You know what I mean? So, where as now the only thing you do to not have to bother with them is don't upload bad art or go around cursin people where as if gaurds were handing out ratings they'd hand out all the good ratings to their friends and people they don't know would get no love what so ever, you know? Basically we don't HAVE to deal with them, but with the rates we WOULD HAVE TO. Of course if you don't bother them then whatever..

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: But the gaurds do tend to lack in their jobs so what if you did nothing bad what so ever, minded your own business and such..well, what if for about a month a gaurd has not given you a rank up? Their obviously being neglectful but what happens when you ask them whats up? Well, then they get all pissy and rank you down more then you were before. OR they put signs on their house saying "don't ask me about rates"...So then what do you do? Sit around with out any veiwing privledges? Do you see why I'm afraid of this system?

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: I have in the past pissed off a gaurd or two do to my overly opinionated mind and I know that others have done the same thing. The gaurds are really pissy...there's nothing anyone can do about it. But I really think Efltown woould be a...Happier place without the NEED to deal with any gaurds, you know?

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: I mean, Shiat! They already have signs on their houses about "Don't ask me about this" or "Don't bother me at all" or "If you're not cool with me it's not cool to talk to me" Blah blah blah. The only NICE gaurd I know is Lerune, but all of the others..Geeze, please , [Hedda], don't make me HAVE to deal with any gaurds. Hehehe. HECK! I've even pissed off the man every now and again. I'd be screwed out of my mind with this rating system, you know. Lots of other would be too and not just because they do bad things, but also because of past offenses, because we don't kiss arse, because they ignore us. It's not going to be just the law breakers in turmoil here...

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: I know I have definitly not broken any laws purposfully or over and over again...but still I know I'll be shiat out of luck, you know?

2005-10-28 [Aidan Ryuko]: my god that was a whole lot of reading, paapuu you have to understand guards deal with the same people over and over.. the same as us members get harassed over and over and are annoyed by it big time by now, people keep asking same things or try to befriend with them because they want privs, I'm befriend with a few.. and I'm not getting any rankups unless I work for it completely myself, which I think is good.. if they rankup friends its probably because they know what kind of people they are, but yes.. it can create the effect of needing to kiss up to them, which is bad.. personally I'm thinking about a question list to not make it too personal while it still shows the person,

2005-10-28 [Aidan Ryuko]: with questions like, WHY do you want this rank, what wiki's do you have or visit often.. with those answers you can get a lot out of people, I've pissed off council members before as well paapuu but that doesn't mean they can or will denie me for it, you do need to deal with guards or council a bit more yes, especially in the beginning, but that'll stay about the same as now.. if you put on nudity on your page you are bound to run into guards wether its on your initiative or the guards, the goal of this rating system is making elftown nicer for the artists, besides.. won't you feel proud if you have rate 5? it's good that you point out possible problems but most are easily adjusted or fixed

2005-10-28 [Whim]: Trust me, Paapuu, I think I know a little more than you about pissing off guards...hehe. But what I'm saying is that if this ranking system were done correctly, you wouldn't run into these problems. If you didn't get ranked up automatically, then you'd simply send a simple message to a guard or hedda or whoever and all they'd have to do is check the amount of time you've been here and how many problems you've caused based on guard reports. A guard would be clearly stepping out of line if they took anything else into consideration. You'd probably even enter Elftown starting at rank 2, which would allow you to see all your basic stuff.

2005-10-28 [Whim]: Rank 1 would be almost like being banned except that you'd still be able to interact with all the other rank 1 people or people who want to allow rank 1 people to interact with them. At any time, a person whould be able to adjust their rating to fit who they want to tolerate. If they're a rank 4 and only want to deal with people rank 2 or higher, then they can block out all rank 1.

2005-10-28 [Whim]: When you create a wiki, you'd be able to block ranks from viewing or commenting on your wiki. And maybe even rank 1 people could still see everyone's house, but they just wouldn't be able to send a message to a rank 2 unless the rank 2 allowed it.

2005-10-28 [Whim]: So what would rank 3, 4, and 5 grant you? Well, 3 would be for anyone who follows the rules. That would be about the rank you'd get for behaving for a certain period of time. Rank 2 is just for noobs, basically, with rank 1 being for the troublemakers. Rank 4 would be where you get into more mature content. This is where age might come into play. Probably people 14 or 16 and up could get rank 4 as long as they kept a good record. Rank 5 would be pretty exclusive. This would be for your 18 and older crowd, most likely, who prove they're mature enough to deserve rank 5. Rank 5 content would be where your 'R' rated art would start showing up.

2005-10-28 [Whim]: But no matter what rank you are, you still may be able to speak with anyone you want. You're only closed off from the rest of Elftown if the rest of Elftown chooses to block you out. There may be a large group of rank 5's who block out everyone rank 4 and below, but they don't have to.

2005-10-28 [Aidan Ryuko]: bravo, all I want to add is.. even though with those ranks elftowns content shouldn't change that much, that someone can see artistic nudity doesn't mean at all that people should fill their house up with that kind of art because they can.. it's a privilege, it keeps out a lot of bad people and it makes you not miss out on beautiful art even if it's not for little kids.

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: WOW! That was...like...totally awsome [Whim]. Pravo. But I am still scetchy about HAVING to deal with the gaurds, you know. I think that gaurds are...in absolute truth extremely pissy some times. Ryuko just sent me a message that he received from a gaurd as well who was mad because he place a poem entery on the daily poem that the gaurd didn't like and the gaurd said GO AWAY AND LEAVE ME ALONE! and such...I don't want to HAVE to ask a gaurd why I'm still rank 3 when I've been here for three years, behaved, am 21 and deserve to be rank 5. You know what I mean. I'm afraid of the gaurds (except for sweet, understnading, reasonable, grandest of grand Lerune). 

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: Geese, see I sound like I love the woman but in reality it's just because when I was going through my "I have questions do you have answers" stage she was the onlky one who didn't bite my head off about it and she acted like a true gaurd. She helped out the elftowners that she is supposed to protect where as the other gaurds don't want anything to do with you unless you have done something wrong, never when you've done something right, ytou know?

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: I mean, yes I understand that most of the gaurds have gone through this and that but they hav'nt gone through it with me and I think that I do not deserve to be treated like I was that "bad, evil" person who just bothered them with the same question, you know. I don't read minds and I definitly don't know EVERYONE on elftown so how am I to know that 1.) the gaurd is having a bad day 2.) they were just asked that question and 3.) that they just don't like me. Maybe if we had Lerune do it...

2005-10-28 [Paapuu]: I mean, yes I understand that most of the gaurds have gone through this and that but they hav'nt gone through it with me and I think that I do not deserve to be treated like I was that "bad, evil" person who just bothered them with the same question, you know. I don't read minds and I definitly don't know EVERYONE on elftown so how am I to know that 1.) the gaurd is having a bad day 2.) they were just asked that question and 3.) that they just don't like me. Maybe if we had Lerune do it...I trust Lerune. I'll go to Lerune. All the others are out of the question, you know? And I really hate being judge but I will give it to you that the rating system it's self sounds like a GREAT idea.

2005-10-29 [Whim]: hehe...well, I wasn't gonna say anything, but yeah, Lerune is probably the best guard here. Definitely a genuinely helpful and understanding person, in my experience. But anyways, of course there will be trouble with guards, but I would imagine that your average good intending elftowner would only go out of their way to block out people who are rank 1. The beauty of this system would be that once you gain a rank, you choose who you do and don't want to deal with. The guards are only there to make sure ranks are properly assigned. This all means that a rank 5 can still interact with rank 1's if he wants. This also means that nearly all areas of Elftown would be accessable at rank 2.

2005-10-29 [Whim]: Since rank 2 or 3 would be your starting rank anyway, it's not like you have to kiss much ass to see normal elftown stuff. I would say that the only things that require rank 4 and 5 access are things like nudity or over the top gore and blood. Think of rank 4 as being rated "PG-13" and rank 5 as being rated "R." PG-13 movies are still allowed a certain amount of nudity, but only glimpses or shots that cover the nipples and genitals. R rated movies can have any sort of nudity and such as long as it doesn't show graphic sex. That means that rank 5 would actually walk the line between art and pornography anyways, so your average person isn't going to even want rank 5 anyway.

2005-10-29 [Whim]: In fact, your average person isn't going to care much about missing out on rank 4 material. Ironically, it's your rank 1's who are going to piss themselves when they find out they can't access rank 4 and 5 material cause they're the perverts...hehe.

2005-10-30 [Aidan Ryuko]: :) and hopefully they will be frustrated for a while and then leave.. and solve another problem:), what if we choose other people then guards, guards already have plenty of stuff to handle.. I think mature parents could be a good choice

2005-10-30 [Paapuu]: But I LOVE over the top gore and blood. So, I'll be mad if I'm...A mature person...could not see that because someone thought that I didn't deserve to...you know? And I think that Ryuko, again has a good idea. Have other people other then gaurds. Because since gaurds are ALWAYS getting mad at people, maybe have someone who HASN'T gotten mad at anyone. See...As long as I know I don't have to deal with the OTHER gaurds...I'm good. Hehe

2005-10-30 [Aidan Ryuko]: lol please dont judge guards in that..I might piss off guards at times and so may you but in general they are very good people and I'm too stubborn to mean that in an asskissing way, same as you I like to be able to view mature content on an art site so going through a wooden wall in order to keep or get that privilege isn't a big sacrifice, dealing with guards or other people is just a necesary inconvenience, I was thinking about people like [Kyrinn] who have an own spot on this site and the respect of many people, but kyrinn herself might have too much obligations as it is (if she wants to do this at all) but there are plenty of people:)

2005-10-30 [Paapuu]: See, you had to deal with the same gaurd as I did, Ryuko...You know how she treated us...I don't want to have to go through that. And most of the gaurds are influenced by the others so we might ask one gaurd, they talk to another like that one we dealt with and they say this and that and BOOM...there goes our heads.

2005-10-31 [Aidan Ryuko]: anyway, about the subject breasts.. does anyone have a good idea about who could be a judge or judges?

2005-10-31 [Whim]: Having any group of people dealing with other people is going to lead to "ass kissing" problems in some way or another. They'll start out nice and unbiased, but sooner or later, they're gonna get annoyed or just not care anymore. That's why I say to have it mostly automated. A specific formula should be used to decide who is eligible to gain rank since anyone who's not eligible SHOULD have a few guard reports on their houses. If they don't, then guards haven't done their jobs correctly.

2005-10-31 [Whim]: I don't know about who would make a good judge, but I really think that you're getting too far ahead of yourself. In order for this system to work properly, Hedda would have to implement the system into Elftown first. There's no way it would work without that unless you wanted to half-ass it, which wouldn't really help at all.

2005-10-31 [Paapuu]: Yeah, basically we need Hedda's approval, really...It's his choice rather or not he wants to keep the uploading art rule the same or change a few things to make it better. He has lots of other things he is probably already working on so wqho knows when this will happen.

2005-11-01 [Kyrinn]: Wow. I wandered in here on a whim (No pun intended, lol) and I see myself mentioned. Thanks so much, Ryuko for the vote of support! I didnt realise that I made such an impression on so many in here. Yay! Ive considered being a guard and applying, but I kind of like my status that I have now. Ive not had to force my opinions onto anyone to get noticed like some that are in ET, nor do I want to start doing it. I dont really see a huge problem with breasts in ET, so long as it is artistic. If I stir up another can of worms from that comment, I didnt mean to. *big grin* so, how 'bout them yankees? *giggles*

2005-11-01 [Paapuu]: Hehe...That's great...

2005-11-01 [Paapuu]: I don't know if any of you have realized this or not....But I sure do talk alot...hehe

2005-11-01 [Whim]: You? No way. Really? Well, I do too when I get on a roll, as you can see...hehe.

2005-11-01 [Paapuu]: Hehe. Hey, this is fun. We should go and do this on every wiki comment page. I've met so many new people. GOSH! Arguing is a great way to meet new friends. Hehehe

2005-11-01 [Kyrinn]: Ummmmmmm... *looks around* Contrary to popular belief, arguing is NOT a great way to meet new friends.

2005-11-01 [Paapuu]: Hehe..No, I was being sarcastic....

2005-11-02 [Whim]: Debate is a great way to make friends. Arguing is what happens when debates turn sour.

2005-11-02 [Paapuu]: Yeppers....

2005-12-05 [weasel6]: damit fuck fuck fuck fuckfuck fuck fuck fuck you stopid idiots the wiki is brests ur suposd to be debating if bare brests should be aloud hear or not not o shit my famlies broke dame yall ar stoopid!!!!!!!!

2005-12-06 [Paapuu]: Weasel6 is a good example of the type of person we DON'T want on elftown...Thank you [weasel6] for your demonstration. 

2005-12-06 [Kitsune Arashi]: Wow, no one's been on here for quite sometime.

2005-12-11 [weasel6]: you now wat im very truth full and i say bare brests are totally normall becase we all have feet so thats perfictly normal right

2005-12-11 [weasel6]: well if both boys and girls had brests then it would be perfictly normal butt nooo some one hade to say noo its wrong becase its diffrent  so in baby talk its the same as being raceist against a body part or raceist aginst black peaple....

2005-12-12 [Aidan Ryuko]: it's racist if you don't respect people for who they are because they have a difference compared to what you are or what you like, that can be black people but that can also be people who don't openly show their breasts, maybe they are normal but if girls aren't comfortable with that like guys are with their chest then we have to respect that or we are the racists, blaming them for thinking different

2005-12-14 [Paapuu]: exactley...If what you say if true...which in reality it is not, Weasle6...Racism only counts for those who discriminate against another individual or group because of their race/color/...then you get into pregidous..which is where we can say that one who does not like those with large breasts, for example is pregidous...not racist.

2005-12-14 [Paapuu]: But not only this...to say that a person who is uncomfortable wit breast is pregidous against those who are is an empty statment...in other words it makes no sense. See, if it were true that someone who expresses their discomfort with whatever were pregidous then EVERYONE is pregidous because EVERYONE has something that they are uncomfortable with. You see? 

2005-12-14 [Paapuu]: And again...this conversation has NOTHING to do with racism what so ever. You must not talk english very well. Maybe you were trying to say something else but did not know how to say it. See...this conversation can in NO WAY be compared to racism against black people. I just found it hilarious that you would think that. No offence at all...but if you read your statement uyou would see how funny it sounds. And Ryuko is right, we have to respect it when people are uncomfortable with certain things. It's human nature to be uncomfortable some times.

2005-12-14 [Aidan Ryuko]: maybe it does;) I mean, I do know several girls that think it sucks they can't just go out like guys can, europe and it's extend america stopped clothing like african tribes, probably because it is colder here, i don't know how and when breasts became so intimate, it's like the under side of your thigh, that isn't intimate is it? but it's very much the same (yes you dont have boobs on your thighs but i don't mean that), the only reason i can think off is the personal view, breasts are for feeding babies, that baby is of just and only you and your husband so the organ you keep your baby alive with can be special.. the sexual reason is probably just grown over the years, i don't know.

2005-12-15 [weasel6]: yes some of mypoints butt see adom and eav wer naked exept ther really private parts (and for those who dont care thare dick and vigina)but over the years peaple got more stuff and so on and so on so thay shuld have ceep it the way it was insted of wat thay did becase before we came to every single contry and evaded the so called natevs ther wer no diseses it was perfict but no we did invade and we scrood every thang up and so on and so on... get it

2005-12-15 [weasel6]: o yeh lol i asked my mom the poll up top and she sed her opinon was it is perfictly normal lol . lol

2005-12-16 [Whim]: That must be the reason you were conceived.

2005-12-16 [Kitsune Arashi]: You know [weasel6], your part of this conversation would be more powerful, if you could actually spell more than one out of the three words you use. You might want to work on that before you get into something like this; people may take you seriously then.

2005-12-19 [Paapuu]: HEY! [Kitsune Arashi]...don't be a bitch...Not everyone on efltown is american and not everyone on elftown speaks fluent english. Just shut up and be happy he actually knows english. DAMB! SEE!...It's people like [Kitsune Arashi], who only wnat to start shit with people because they are bored who we don't want in elftown. GO AWAY KITSUNE! No one thinks your funny. No one!

2005-12-19 [Paapuu]: So, back to the discussion on hand...before we were RUDELY interrupted. See, Adam and Eve is a good example but it is more religious then factashious. Now, everyone knows that long long ago we all walked around either naked or in furs, but times past and so has some laws about human desency. This is why we have clothes on, because men and women have become accostomed to become arroused by the sight of a naked body. But this also supports that the naked body is indeed a beautiful thing. 

2005-12-19 [Paapuu]: You know, [Kitsune Arashi], people who are rude are also considered...Shallow...You yourself have stated on your page that you want a Shallow Free Elftown. So, practice what you preach. Sorry, but it makes me extremely mad when people don't want to be understanding of other lack of certain abilities, they don't even think. They just insult. For no reason.

2005-12-20 [Aidan Ryuko]: there is a difference between incapability and not bothering, someone can have a very good point but not being taken seriously because of the language, if your goal is to really make a point then a bit of adjustment shouldn't be a problem, not being good at english doesn't mean you should talk in slang instead, OR using curse words because you can't really handle the discussion.

2005-12-21 [Paapuu]: Yes, but the womans rudeness is not of the discussion, we are talking about breasts. Even though this issue has already been handled, it is still nice to talk about it.

2005-12-21 [Jay Ladlehaus]: The issue or breasts?

2005-12-21 [Aidan Ryuko]: lol, hearing that from a woman makes my day!

2005-12-21 [Kitsune Arashi]: Okay, were do you go off telling me that I'm being shallow. That's simply stupid. I merely stated that, because it is very hard to understand someone if they can't spell properly. Yes, I realize that there are many different countries on here, and for that, I should have understood. Nonetheless, calling me shallow for something like that is immature and the two do not even coincide.

2005-12-21 [Aidan Ryuko]: hm, i should buy my nephew marzipan breasts.. hed be emberassed and delighted at the same time, come on give it a smile it's almost xmas, a good excuse to feel good.

2005-12-23 [Paapuu]: Yes, actually, they do...Shallow, in definition states an individual with a lack of mental expansion...You lacked a broad view of Elftown when you neglected to concider someones feelings before insulting them...therefore, you ARE shallow. I'm sorry to say that, but your cunduct was also VERY unnecessary. This is a conversation about Breast and if it is Art or Porn, not someones spelling errors. 

2005-12-23 [Paapuu]: And by issue, for the stated questions above, I mean Hedda has already settled the matter of breast on Elftown. But talking about our opinions about breast and their exposure is still a very interesting thing to do.

2005-12-26 [Aidan Ryuko]: the interesting part of a discussion about breasts is that it gives light to peoples behavioral patterns, it doesn't have much to do with breasts does it:) anyway, please lighten up in this dark month of parties and sugar filled food, I'm shallow if I say ice cream is the most godly thing on earth, it's a momentary opinion of mine.. not to be taken serious, it's easy to get touchy if matters get looked at under a microscope, my advise.. get a hug:)

2005-12-27 [Paapuu]: I have had a hug...I was just Momentarily offended because some people can't speak english...and since this is a descussion about breast I found absolutely unecessary to bring up someones english skills. That's all. Now go get a hug ;)

2005-12-28 [Aidan Ryuko]: I'll gladly get myself a hug;), if people know english and they talk badly I have more trouble reading what they say then understanding what their point is, that isn't what you want to reach;) as far as I'm concerned this society should socially be aware of what breasts really are instead of having this mystique over it, if we as a society would evolve socially then the physical part can follow on that. breasts are normal in my eyes but you can't just say, lets show them for everyone to see, nowadays that's just wrong.. we need to unwind that thought for you can actually be that open.

2005-12-30 [Paapuu]: Yes, it is true that breast are normal in the eyes of some. But then you must consider the fact that Elftown is a Social Community, and it is not normal for, say in a nice town with shops and bars, it would not usually be normal to see a strip club. But, it would be normal to see an art gallery...which might include nude art. So, this is where a problem about breast and nudety would arise. Is the art gallery too close to the strip club? 

2005-12-30 [Aidan Ryuko]: this community has been build up for fantasy lovers, it's the official community of elfwood, that makes it artistic wether you write or draw or make photo's, thank god most contests also allow nudity IF it's tastefull, that's an artistic mind saying that, nudity is fine as long as it's tastefull, art is what we want to see. BUT this community has grown big and the more ppl, the more difference among them, a lot of younger people or people that cant stand nudity and its effects on people, I think elftown has to be adjusted to that untill those people change their mind or are gone.

2005-12-30 [Aidan Ryuko]: or a third option is keeping that nudity for a restricted audience, not like a stripbar but like a chique restaurant with a dresscode, you dont let anyone in thats above 18 and has cash, you let people in that bother enough to follow a dresscode, mature enough to respect this material

2006-01-02 [small and mighty]: lol i agree with aidan's last comment..i havent commented in a while though :)

2006-01-02 [small and mighty]: i like showing off mine to my bf or a couple other people when im in one of my moods... o.0 but thats about it..lol i know theres wayyyy too many of my relatives out there that could see them and im not comfortable with that

2006-01-02 [small and mighty]: but if someone is comfortable with the fact that their close family members(moms,dads,brothers sisters cousins and such) can go look at a pic of their breast/nudeness.....fine..go ahead and let your family see ya nakey....lol

2006-01-03 [Aidan Ryuko]: it's true that if your family is okay with it going to the shower without clothes isn't an issue, but flashing your boobs to other people, those people most likely don't appreciate it in the right way, often you can see it by the bump in their pants;) if they r guys that is. if you feel depressed as a girl there most likely is a group that thinks ur just being a crybaby, another group that just wants to hit on you by being nice and that last group that actually really cares, if you put your problems at the first 2 groups ull probably come out worse then it was in the end, so be carefull where you put your problems.. maybe this resemblance makes it clear how to handle breasts as well.

2006-01-07 [small and mighty]: lol...good point aidan.....i do like looking at female nude bodies...but not in a 'lesbian or bisexual wqay'..i just think female body is one of the most beautiful works of art AVER!!! but if they are posing like jenna jameson would for a 'smut'mag(if ya dont know who she is good for you.lol shes a porn star)then...bleh..it makes me feel shame in being a woman

2006-01-07 [small and mighty]: ive seen some pics of marylin monroe when she was in playboy...and those pics were soooooo goshdang Awesome!!!! and the playboys that are flaoting about now are sick....legs all open and just slutting about....again makes me feel shame in being a woman

2006-01-23 [weasel6]: hay u no how dateing your cousins are suposed to be wrong well if suposibly adom and eave was the feirst ones on earth well that meanswer all cousins

2006-01-24 [Aidan Ryuko]: well dating your cousin is rather odd >.> in russia there is now the first woman that is a mom and grandmom at the same time o.O her son died of cancer and she impregnated herself with his sperm, in the end she got the baby but the law doesnt acknowledge the relationship so she had to adopt it and now her official title is "mother of grandson" talk about weird things that could be considered being wrong;)

2006-01-24 [small and mighty]: yipes...that is kinda creepy..and weasel ever watch mind on mencia...'the bible says its so wrong to have sex with your brother or sister.adam and eve had 3 sons and two daughters,Someone had to bone their sister.' kind of funny..but yeh...

2006-01-24 [weasel6]: see

2006-01-24 [weasel6]: u thank about it then u start to get freaked out