Healing In Elftown

2006-08-07 [Kiddalee]: And about being nice to bad grammar folks, and whoever else: It doesn't mean I have to pretend to like them. I don't see the problem with acknowledging that talking that way is a stupid idea. It's not destructively insulting them. You don't have to love everyone in order to be good to them.

2006-08-07 [Sunrose]: How is it dealing with them? It just lists members and in some cases in offensive and judgemental ways. Some of them are labelled as 'cyberers' based on their pictures alone.
Mind that cybering itself is not against Elftown rules, harassment by unwanted cybersex is.
You don't really stop those type of cyberers by stalking their house, they don't cyber through their description but through messages. They can only be stopped by people reporting their messages, often sent out as spam.

2006-08-07 [Sunrose]: It's hard to be nice to someone yet showing you dislike them, that tends to sound pretty sarcastic when put together. Either way I never stated you have to like them, I just found some things on this wiki contradicting. You seem to be opposed to the idea of blacklisting and insulting bad grammar folks and offenders (because talking to them in a nice way would probably change them around better), yet 'cyberers' are blacklisted and insulted with your support. Whether they actually harass someone or not, whether there is proof or not.
This whilst you also state that neither bad grammar folks and cyberers are probably really like that in reality.
So why not try talking to cyberers too, as you said you don't have to love them, but approaching them in a nicer way to change things?
I don't see why these two groups get a different treatment.

2006-08-10 [Kiddalee]: Black Listing For Cyberers is working slowly, but it has found some rulebreakers and reported them. Don't mistake it for a dungeon wiki, which is good for nothing but listing people to insult.
If I am actually faced with the oppurtunity to talk to cyber-folk, I take it. I don't approach them in their houses, because I don't want to appear harrassing. However, if I get in a conversation with them, they learn pretty easily that it doesn't work on me. That is not the same as insulting.
And, there is nothing wrong with talking civilly to someone that you believe is doing things that are totally wrong. That is what we all must do in this world.
I think a misunderstanding here is whether I dislike these people. I can't say I like them, but geez, why would I dislike them? All I see is their stupid web persona. I find their actions annoying, but that's not disliking them. The people I dislike are among those who display their true selves online, because there is actually something there to like or dislike.
Also note that just because I belong to a lot of movements, it doesn't mean I have to follow everything they believe just to be a part of the movement. Some nasty things have come out of some of the movements I'm in, but some useful things have, too. It doesn't mean that everyone in those movements is nasty, or that nastiness is all those movements stand for.

2006-08-10 [Sunrose]: You don't need the wiki itself though to find and report them.
Whether you talk to them nicely is not what bothered me. It's the point that you seem opposed to negative movements, but have joined some anyway. That itself seemed contradicting.
Of course I understand not everything they do and not every member is negative that way, but the fact remains that the movement itself is based on something negative.
I of course see the problem, but when thinking of a solution I'd rather try something in a positive way. Like Great Bios does.
The different treatment point I made still stands.

2006-08-10 [Kiddalee]: How about the fact that you can't get someone kicked out of Elftown for talking to you in bad grammar? That is only one reason.
And what is negative about joining a movement meant to end a negative aspect of Elftown?

2006-08-10 [Sunrose]: That depends on what was said. Most of the harassment reports are about poorly spelled insulting messages. And you can't get someone kicked off for cybering just like that either.
If the movement itself does it with a negative approach.
Example:
- I hate long bios -> negative approach; pretty pointless list of people hating long bios
- Great Bios -> positive approach; it actually explains how to make improvements
I never said it's bad to want to end something bad, I said that the way you try to do so can be bad.

2006-08-10 [Kiddalee]: There is a place for expressing what you are against, too.

2006-08-10 [Sunrose]: Of course, those positive wikis do that too though.

As I pointed out earlier, you just seemed to contradict yourself:
•Various people have created wikis especially for listing and insulting people that they dislike. This solves nothing, and is extremely immature, which of course makes it hypocritical.
Later on:
•By becoming active in Black Listing For Cyberers.

Of course you said you don't per say dislike cyberers, but listing them like that doesn't make them feel you like them either.

2006-08-11 [Kiddalee]: Like I said, Black Listing For Cyberers isn't just for listing people to insult.

2006-08-11 [Sunrose]: But that is what happens on it anyway..if you look at wikis.

2006-08-11 [Kiddalee]: That isn't its purpose, and it's still not worthless.

2006-08-11 [Sunrose]: 'Black Listing' is in the wikiname.
I didn't say it was though.

2006-08-16 [Kiddalee]: First, I didn't name the wiki. Take it up with the owner. We like rational opposers. Secondly, it is a blacklist, but it isn't a dungeon. Violators are getting reported by members of that wiki, because of the wiki. Thirdly, I joined for the purpose, not the impression.

2006-08-16 [Sunrose]: Like I said, all I see on the wiki are listed names often accompanied with insulting comments. The name is not helping this impression. It makes it look like a dungeon to me, despite its original purpose.
But I don't think I should try any more to get that point across, since it's obviously not getting across.

2006-08-17 [Kiddalee]: Why haven't you taken up the way it is run with the owner?

2006-08-17 [Sunrose]: Because that (the way it is run) wasn't my point, which proves that it didn't come across and that this discussion is futile.

2007-06-23 [birdsong]: Hello [Kiddalee]. I really enjoyed reading your ideas for a wiki that may bring about change.

I'm unable to construct a precise answer to all the issues listed, as it's late, and i;m exhausted . But i did want to encourage your direction~ of figuring out how things have become warped in this community, and that changes can come about by remembering what an amazing Community Elftown is.

I know that things are not quite as easy as that...but if we realize that elftown is very unique in the way it brings people together. A common thing, a love of art...Hedda really did have a vision with this idea!
It seems that we all could find a way to govern this community...maybe simply by being our brother's keeper...or by protecting the areas of elftown that are precious to us.

There is one last thing that i've been curious about;
I have always wondered if the the ways that Hedda governs Elftown reflects the way his native Country is run?  Heh, now I am off the track, rambling is my curse.
So i thank you for bringing up these interesting issues ;they are critical to Elftown's future.                                    

2007-08-07 [BarleySinger]: I think that the way Hedda runs (or more accuratly ran in some cases) his site has to do with the fact that it is HIS site, not anyone elses site, and that most people who are very good with computers take a while to come to understand social dynamics and the rules and structures that are used elsewhere is the world of humans to stay away from social power problems. For a long time he made his online friends the guards (and friends of friends) with no age requirement or way to keep from abuse of power and no standard of quality in the person. There are no standard forms on the site that force all guards to interact with all problems in the same way (this is what businesses do when you call them...they have a computer system that guides people through their call centre) in order to make certain that nobody is mistreated. Take away the power to mistreat people by using business process and the problem mostly goes away...and that is what people do in conflict resulution software systems. I used to write software that deal with human processes for a living. I offered to help and was rather directly told to bugger off as things were perfect as they were.

But Hedda doesn't like that idea (I would not run a community without that type of software in place) and this is his baby and he is the one who got to deal with the result of people having their art and text content regularly trashed by a few power hungry guards who got off on power not not equitable treatment. They would assume art or writings were stolen when they were not and just take them down without any conversation, and tell teh person they were a theif (a legally actionable accusation by the way). At one point for me this meant losing the art forever due to a hard drive crash at the wrong time. Generally this meant that, on Elftown people were guilty of any accusation unless they were found innocent by another guard who had more social pull with Hedda...making the whole guard thing into a social clique that people joined just for imaginary status and power. As a result people left the site.

Regardless, if I were to change anything on elftown, any one thing, I would get rid of the "Body Type" and "Sexual Preference" information on the site. Way to many people/perverts use that criteria to do user searches on "Big Breasted" "Bisexual" girls of a certain (under)age and chat them up to try and get pornographic web camera pics out of them. I though the site was supposed to be about art, not amature underaged porn and sexual predators.

2007-08-07 [iippo]: You do realise that you are encouraged to civilly report
a) any power hungry guard's bad behaviour
b) sexual predators

Also, I'd just like to point out that
"There are no standard forms on the site that force all guards to interact with all problems in the same way"
Yes there is. There are wikis and forums for crew to read and talk in when there are any issues, be it about members, the way the site is run, rules, crew's behaviour, etc... They are very busy all the time, with a lot of discussion going on all the time.

Apart from that, I kind of dislike the way you keep repeating "power hungry guards" when I've never even seen one - must be very few of them. So please don't generalise, most of them are giving their time to do work for a site they like, only to get abuse and bullshit back from members who don't like the rules and just don't care about other people's feelings. But personally I can say that I'm glad that there are guards to deal with queries, problems and suggestions, because those inhuman "press one if your problem is not unique in anyway, hang up if it is" -things, no program or AI can replace human-to-human communication.

2012-04-26 [deziron dee]: you are absolutely on point, people should learn to curb their tongue here, its not right to insult other people