2008-12-15 [Hedda]: I've applied for partners in many more countries, but they are slow to respond. Stay tuned...

2009-01-06 [Artsieladie]: Ok..I can't guarantee that I will get exactly what I mean across here, but I'm going to give it a shot.

I know how to create art, but I know zilch about selling it, like getting it printed and marketing it. If anyone can possibly help me with this aspect, I'd be very willing to split the profits 50/50 with you and Elftown as long as the income does not show up on my end that I'm getting all the profit, because this would present a major problem with me and the IRS (here in the US - I can explain further) and as long as the costs are covered at, for example, where the art is printed and not out of my pocket for my pockets are pretty empty. I may be quoted here on this statement. I have wanted for a long time to be able to use my artwork to help Elftown, but I simply do not know just how to.

2009-01-06 [Hedda]: If you have something to sell that people want to buy, then I can take Paypal-payments and forward money to you (our IRS is much less horrible than yours). Then you have to print/what-ever and post the stuff though. I'm really not sure what people would buy either. Very few buy posters and t-shirts on the Internet, for example.

You can make a Cafepress shop and that will be advertised on Elftown if I get percentage on that (You have to opt in for that when creating the shop). The problem is that Cafepress is expensive and don't sell something I personally want.

2009-01-06 [Hedda]: See also:
http://www.google.se/search?q=cafepress+alternative

2009-01-06 [Artsieladie]: I suspected you would know how to handle the financial end of it. :)

The IRS here is a royal pain in the arse to put it mildly and if you have monies that are shown (but not necessarily so) to be earned by you, you have a snowball's chance in hell to convince the US IRS of anything different. If those paper trails lead to you, well, then, they must be so! Paying income taxes on that which I have 'earned' is one thing, but paying income taxes on income that is not my actual income is not happening. You know how I feel about greedy bastards. <..<

Then you have to print/what-ever and post the stuff though.

Exactly! I've been watching this page hoping for something in the US in regards to printing, and I know you've been trying to find something in the US. The problem I have experienced thus far in my search for 'reasonably priced printing' services, is that the cost of printing is too damn expensive. If you order 1000 prints of ONE item, you can usually get a better deal, but I'm not going to lay out that kind of money and then what, be stuck with 999 prints of 'one item'? Besides, I don't have that kind of money to lay out to begin with. Most artists don't.

As an example, last year at Christmas, I had a poster printed of a unicorn I had made for a gift. It was 24 inches wide (do not know the metric system very well) by 36 inches in height. It cost me almost $40.00 to have printed. Now if I had wanted to sell that, even if I only tacked on $5, who would buy it at $45? A poster? No way, unless I got really lucky and met up with someome that had all kinds of money that they didn't know what else to do with.

Then there are places/websites that will do the printing for/on T-shirts and whatevah, but they want such an exorbitant price for their production of whatevah. So if the artist wants to make anything, they have to tack on what they would get, which makes the item produced even less likely to be bought, because the item then is even more expensive. I'm not saying that these places/companies shouldn't be able to make some money, too, but they are HOGS! They wind up getting most of the money, while the artist that has done the majority of the work, gets virtually zilch. In order for the artist to make any kind of decent money, a LOT of these items would have to be sold.

I'm really not sure what people would buy either.

Me, either, but this is where the knowledge of proper marketing comes into play. I know basically enough to know that items have to be marketed where there is a demand of some sort for a particular item or items. But this is all I know. I have even searched for agents, because agents know about such stuff, but so far this is a dead end and I don't want to go with an agent that I just come across on the internet or in the yellow pages, because how do I know I can trust that that person isn't just a rip-off artist? Rip-off artists are a very real likelihood in the artist's world. If it makes me paranoid a little, well I'd rather be a little paranoid than naive.

Very few buy posters and t-shirts on the Internet, for example.

I know this. I keep meaning to get stuff up on my Redbubble account, but I guess knowing the likelihood of it actually bringing in much, makes me put it off, not to mention, the time involved to get it uploaded there. I do really need to stop putting this off and do it, though, because who knows? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. But if I do, I wanted to put some works of mine there that the money from would go directly for Elftown and I'm not quite sure how I would do this or set something like this up.

I know that people like fantasy, among several other art topics/forms, but I also know that there are a lot of animal loving people out there. I am an artist more with animals and scenery than I am of fantasy in reality, especially with horses, cats and dogs. Reaching these horse loving, cat loving, and dog loving people would be the goal to meet. It sounds easy enough, but isn't. I do have a little hope that with this lady I'm doing art for, that perhaps she can help me to get more exposure in the world of horses, because she is a part of this world being in show jumping. ...And possibly with book publishing, because she is working on getting her book published and this is what I designed the book covers for. But everything always seems 'just out of reach'.

About the Cafepress thing... first I would have to learn what such entails, the how-tos and whatnots. If it involves setting up a website, then I've already got a problem, because I do not know how to. I have a Google site and a domain name now, but I've done nothing with it, because I do not know what I'm doing. >,,< It needs mega time on my part to focus on it, and I don't have that much time. If I knew a willing, reliable, trustworthy person that would be interested in working with it, I'd let them. My daughter knows about how to do web pages, but she's much too involved with what she's doing and I can't nor won't fault her for this. But me? I have NO clue how.

It's just like with Photoshop. I have techniques that I've learned how to do that other people would love to know how to do, but how can money be made with the knowledge? It's very similar with the Paint Shop Pro picture tubes and frames. Money can be made with these, too, because many people love and search for them, especially well made ones and I am a fanatic about my PNG's with transparent backgrounds (that can be PSP picture tubes and frames). They must be clean! But without the knowledge of setting up a website and/or webpages, well, this also becomes a deadend -or- at least I think so.

I understand your reasoning for offering stuff from Elftown 'for free', to bring more people to Elftown and hopefully, Elftown will gain many more members from this, but on the other hand, if you offer 'everything' for free, you can't make money either. You already offer sites for free, and I really don't want to be blunt here, but where has it gotten you as far as people feeling the desire to donate? I mean, come on! 236 donors out of 186915 members or even 2821 'active' members, the percentage is ludicrous! I realise there are many that can't, but I'm also sure that there are many more here that can. It is really very generous of you, you know, to offer your sites for free and I do think people should realise this at least a little more than they do. I may get criticised for saying this, but it's because with some at least, I will make them feel guilty. I may not know all there is to know about what it costs you to keep Elftown online, but even my common sense tells me enough to know that it isn't free. I also realise that it is also beneficial in a way to offer membership for free, because many would not be here if they had to pay. But... at some point people have to realise that having and getting things do cost money and that running these sites and making them available is a major load that YOU carry.

So the bottom line is, I'm an artist and a writer that is willing to help Elftown with my art and writings, if at all possible, but I don't know how to. As far as percentage for you and Elftown, I did say I would have no problem with 50/50 and I don't have a problem! The problem I have is bringing this possibility of making money with it to fruition, so you CAN have 50% of it!

Now shoot me, because I just wrote waaaaaaaaay too much!

2009-01-06 [Hedda]: Cafepress is some work, but it's really simple. [Sunrose] sat one up for Elftown's t-shirts, for example and [liiga] has two running:
http://www.cafeshops.com/fantasy_designs
http://www.cafeshops.com/dragon_designs
You just have to upload the images, decide what you want to print them on and tell the price and where the money should go. Cafepress (or alternatives, I guess) handles selling, printing, shipping and even affiliate marketing if you opt in for that.

2009-01-06 [Hedda]: About the affiliate thing on Cafepress, you can do like this:

You set up your shop and opt in for the program.

Now anyone set up links to your shop or products and they will split the income with you (if you for example add 10% for your art on the stuff you sell, then about half of that will go to the affiliate (numbers are approximate)). Then you hopefully don't have to relay on only Elftown and you can Google around to all those sites that display your pegasus and tell them to link to your shop and they can get money.

2009-01-06 [Hedda]: But still: Read the reviews about the Cafepress alternative and check the prices! And try to find someone who is shipping cheaply to Europe if you can find that.

2009-01-06 [Hedda]: By the way: You don't suck at marketing. Thousands of people see you art every day. You just fail to monetize on it.

2009-01-06 [Artsieladie]: Hmm.. I'll look at the links you've given and see if I can get it through this thick head of mine. Most of this kind of stuff is a language I don't understand, but I won't know unless I look. :P

I've only casually gone over the Cafepress alternative as of yet. ^^

My friend Joan ships all over the world through her fabric design business. So, maybe she would have a few pointers on cheaper shipping. I dunno. I'll ask. :P

They do!?!

You just fail to monetize on it.

Well, this is where I have to make a BIG correction, then!


How can you say that I don't suck at marketing when I know NOTHING about it?!! I do suck if I can't monetise on it!

2009-01-07 [Artsieladie]: I've been going through links/leads, what-have-you with this link you gave me: http://www.google.se/search?q=cafepress+alternative There's a lot there to go through. I've noted a couple so far that I'd like to check out further. I'm sure I'll find more to check out.

I've already seen the Elftown's T-shirts one, but I went and looked at [liiga]'s. Cafepress IS pricey. If products are too expensive, they aren't going to move very much. :P

Do you know anything about Ebay?

I'm also open to book publishing, in which the same would apply as I've stated with my art. Cafepress has a print-on-demand service for books, too, but I have a couple of other sites to check out as well as far as publishing a book is concerned, but Book Surge (an affiliate of Amazon *grrrr* is off my list!) [Skydancer] left a link, Lulu.com on EPRM Action Pose Reference that I wanted to check out, but Opera gave me this warning:


Gees, I love this upload at 'edit area' feature! I just used it right here. It's marvelous!

Feel free to tell me that this idea that just popped in my head, is insane, but I'm going to run it by you anyway and if I can make it come out the way I mean will be good, too. Since artists of the various genres have their greatest difficulty in finding success to earn a living with their creativity, would it be beneficial to try and work with and/or bring aboard Elftown those that are in the positions to help creators find the proverbial door they are seeking? By those in the right positions, I mean, 'reputable' publishing companies and/or representatives of and agents for the different genres are two that are off the top of my head. I don't imagine it would be an easy endeavor, but if something like this could be pulled off, this would not only give you a great edge to use as an advertising tool, but once such a word got out, I think you could bring many people here to Elftown because of it, because this is the biggest obstacle I do believe between a starving artist and a successful one. We know how to create, but we know very little about getting it out there. If there could be some pathway paved that would connect these two worlds, I do believe you might just find a mini gold mine even. Give people what they are looking for most, and they will come. There's got to be others here, too, that can offer valuable insights on this, like some here have had their works published for example. But... this might be something that's way out there in left field! I dunno. But a silent idea, can never become a good idea, either. ;P

2009-01-08 [Hedda]: I've just registered at a Swedish Ebay company, so I probably know way less than you.

Opera don't give me that warning on Lulu.com

I think <forum:Art for sale> is a place to start talking about how and where to sell you art.

If you or anyone else find any less expensive alternatives to Cafepress, please let me know! I haven't had time to investigate the links I gave you and it isn't in the center of my working area. I know that a Cafepress shop is easy to set up and it doesn't cost anything, so if you spend a day on doing it, you'll learn something from it and have something to compare against. Don't expect to make a lot of money from it though.

2009-01-08 [Artsieladie]: Oh, I'm afraid I don't know anything about Ebay, but I phoned and left a message with a friend of mine that might, because he goes on there all the time. So, I'll see what I can find out. If I find out anything that I think might be good, I'll be sure to share. :) I really have to find out more about it anyway, because I have a LOT of stuff that I want to sell, get rid of. :P

Hmm.. I wonder why it gave to me then. I just tried it again and it didn't give that to me this time. -shrugs-

I have been in that forum and I just came from there, but there doesn't seem to be much discussion about the actual selling of art. People advertise that they have art for sale and there's a couple links in there I've noted to check out. Most of them seem to refer back to Deviantart and Elfwood for their galleries and sell from Deviantart, but I haven't heard many success stories selling from there, either. I've thought about applying to Elfwood several times, but then I think I probably wouldn't be able to get in there anyway.

Most definitely I would let you know! I understand the time factor, because there are a lot to go through and to do a decent reviewing of them, it does take time! Actually, I was thinking about setting up a Cafepress shop anyway, because like you say, there's no cost and I can use it as a learning experience. What's one more site when I already belong to 50 at least.

Don't expect to make a lot of money from it though.

Well, there's no chance of disappointment there! I've pretty much given this notion up a looooong time ago! ^^ It seems after an artist is dead, then there's lots of money to be made from all the works created, which is pretty sucky for the artist. lol 

If Opera keeps acting up like it has all day thus far, I'll get absolutely nothing done! I don't know what its problem is today. :/

2009-01-09 [Hedda]: You can't make anything from setting up Elfwood or Deviantart accounts. What you need is:

Step 1) Getting famous. You've done that part with your art already as I said.

Step 2) Get it printed on stuff that people want to buy. Works badly with Cafepress, but find something better.

Step 3) Make your fans know about it.

It isn't much work, it's just that you have to find the right channel. If you can't, then keep searching and stop wasting you time with other things.

2009-01-12 [Artsieladie]: *nods* I think I know this. It would be more about adding exposure for my work, than thinking about making money. :P

You make it sound so easy, Hedda. 1,2,3... I wish it was. You must know something that I don't, then, because I wouldn't put famous and myself in the same sentence for I don't see myself anywhere close to such.

I'm looking for something better, both online and off as far as printing. It's as bad as looking for a needle in a haystack, it seems. I'll share what and if I find something tangible.

Yessum. Making friends aware is easy, but knowing who all your fans are and reaching them or knowing just what are the best routes to take to reach them, is another task all in itself. I'm willing to try all sorts of avenues, but I often feel that I am wasting my time with fruitless avenues, as opposed to being on routes that can provide me with the success I'm looking for.

Speaking of 'wasting my time'....

It isn't much work, it's just that you have to find the right channel. If you can't, then keep searching and stop wasting you time with other things.

Yes, the 'right channel'. I wish I could find this 'right channel'. :) Perhaps, you wouldn't mind telling me what I'm wasting my time with? I'm serious. I would really like to know this, because you can see a much bigger picture than I can.

I've started a Cafepress account. I never know what names to come up with and now I need to create a logo. There are still some other links I am either checking out or they are on my list of links to check. It's a little slow going, because I need to do other stuff, too. But as I find out info, I'll pass it along to you, good, bad, indifferent.

I have oodles and oodles of graphics, over 9000 on ET alone. What I don't have, I can make, even by order or request. Since they do not require printing, because they are used on one's computer, webpages and such, do you have any ideas how money can be made with these? I could offer some for free and then sell the rights to people (somehow I don't know of) to be able to use them, maybe? ...And could such be based out of Elftown through wiki-pages, which could also be beneficial to draw traffic to Elftown? Again, I have no clue, if I'm throwing poop ideas out there or not. I just throw them out there. If I knew how to do web page design, I would know more about how graphics can be used, but I don't. It's hard to learn how to do time-eating things, because you can't be creative and try to learn mega stuff at the same time. I love to learn, but I am a creative person first. :P

2010-10-18 David Fe: I've started a Cafepress account. I never know what names to come up with and now I need to create a logo.

http://www.publish-book.com/

There are still some other links I am either checking out or they are on my list of links to check. It's a little slow going, because I need to do other stuff, too. But as I find out info, I'll pass it along to you, good, bad, indifferent.