2008-02-16 [Mikie9191]: Wow - so many great entries. I voted f) but I quite like b) and i) too. Awesome detail. Good work everyone.

2008-02-16 [J. "dragonruler" Rouse]: ^^ Thank you. It helps to full view the image.

2008-02-17 [GLASSALIEN]: C. to me actuly looks like something that should be on this site, the colours chosen for it, just prove the point, congrats to the artist

2008-02-17 [Sheracle]: Aww.. C is pretty... But I don't like that it doesn't have forearms because they're turned into wings.. It should have wings growing from its shoulderblades and also forearms in my opinion..

2008-02-17 [KaiRei]: I like D.

2008-02-17 [Cascading water lillies]: I wanted to choose two that were definitely to my taste. Oh well! :P

2008-02-18 [Six_dragons]: I think C seems to have the most fantasy to it of them ^^

2008-02-18 [Katja]: Well, C is a wyvern if you want to be technical. It has wings where it's arms should be, and or it has no forearms, it has wings.

2008-02-18 [Cia_mar]: you are right about c being a wyvern... there is a discription of one here: wyvern

2008-02-18 [windowframe]: katja, all pieces were voted on by the council, and only the 10 that voted 'best' by the council made it the poll. If you had a problem with one of the entries, you should have brought it up beforehand, until waiting until now. Because now it just looks like you're sulking because your entry didn't get through. Which I'm sure isn't true. ;)

2008-02-18 [Sheracle]: Well then.. Not to bitch or anything.. But why the F*´# is there a wyvern in the final contest for DRAGONS??? Thats just plain stupid.. imo anyways.. someone ought to do something about that! :) and i liked the 'little' dragon from the original contest the best... Just scale it up ;) (if it's okay with the artist ofcourse (like make it have huge babies or something - science can do that!) Heh..

2008-02-18 [Mrs Vicious.]: I like D....it's perdy.... he he.... there all perdy....exept for A and G... there just.. not as perdy... *giggles*

2008-02-18 [Merlin Mab]: all of them work perhaps a dragon carousel would work (grins)

2008-02-18 [windowframe]: [Sheracle], as awesome as the council are, they're not all-knowing dragon specialists. We sort things out if we catch them. If we don't catch them, and no one else can be arsed to point it out, then well tough. :) Apparently more than one person noticed this before the poll was made, and no one thought it worth pointing out then.

2008-02-18 [Artsieladie]: Actually, the point that [windowframe] has stated, that if anyone had objections to the allowance of an image, ALL had plenty of time to make their concerns be known before this poll, or even before the Crew poll. There is another Dragon Art contest being considered that will be accepting of all the various types of Dragons. We realise that it is upsetting to spend a good deal of time on a piece & it doesn't make it in, but this happens to the best of us. This is why contests should be entered into as fun & challenging. If any of us get lucky & our art gets chosen, then this a bonus, but in no way does it mean that an art piece isn't worthy, if it doesn't make it in. It's not like the art pieces aren't going to be used somehow, somewhere in conjunction with Elftown's Dragon page. Therefore, everyone is going to get a fair amount of recognition for their piece. When we enter contests, we all must be aware that we all can't win. This would be a totally impractical & impossible expectation.

2008-02-19 [Katja]: To all: This was never about the "winning" This was about righting a wrong. I am sorry to have started yet another argument. It is however dissapointing as the Lady has mentioned to have worked on something. My hours were well spent. And that is all I have to say.

2008-02-19 [Paul Doyle]: [Katja], be sure to give a nod to Todd Lockwood ;-)

2008-02-19 [windowframe]: If the "righting a wrong" refers to entry C, then you were given ample time to "right" it beforehand. I don't understand why you've waited until now to try and "right" it.

2008-02-19 [J. "dragonruler" Rouse]: Perhaps entrants were under the impression that, if most of them could see the issue with the wyvern entry then clearly the judges could. All they're saying is obviously they were wrong.

2008-02-19 [windowframe]: No, they're not saying that. :) They're complaining that there's a wyvern in the poll. ;) But [Katja] at least entered the contest herself - she was watching the contest page where the entry was; saw that no one was mentioning it or doing anything about it; and that other entries posing issues *were* being dealt with. And yet she still chose leave it until it was too late to change. An also brought it up only when she found her own entry hadn't made the final cut. She has a valid point about the entry, but she didn't bother to say anything about it until she found out her own entry hadn't made it. Which does make it seem like she's only mentioned it because he was sulking about her own entry, however valid her point is.

2008-02-19 [Sheracle]: [windowframe] btw Katja is a girl... And how can you know that [J. "dragonruler" Rouse] is not correct? That Katja thought you guys would see it immediately... As far as I can tell you wouldn't know that for sure.. One can't comment on everything... am I right? :)

2008-02-19 [windowframe]: Gender corrected. ;) If she thought us guys would see it immediately then we would dealt with it immediately. The fact that the entry had been up for a week should suggest that we hadn't seen it immediately, especially when other issues were being dealt with as they came up. The fact that it was up for even LONGER than that really strongly suggests that someone needed to point it out. All other atypical entries were marked as atypical. It doesn't take a genius to realise that if it's not been flagged as atypical, that's because no one has realised it yet.

So I can be pretty certain, unless I want to assume that everyone's a bit stupid. Which I don't. :) That's just depressing. :P

I can tell Dragonruler is wrong due to the lack of people saying what he's suggesting they said. ;) No one said 'gee, I thought it was obvious one of the entries was a dragon, and assumed the judges had seen it'. They said 'why is there a wyvern in the poll?'

2008-02-19 [Katja]: No, righting a wrong done to another. Go back, read the forum under the contest page, and then read the note beneath my piece. And to Mr. Doyle, with all respect. *waves the Draconomicon around in the air because she just doesn't care* It was modeled after the silver, but if you really bothered to look it goes way further than that...there's even a bit of the second edition quicksilver (mercury) dragon in there. It was INTENTIONAL.Every dragon is mirrored in that piece. *bows down and praises a true artist of Dragons* to LOCKWOOD, for getting it right!

2008-02-19 [windowframe]: The note beneath your piece where you were trying to stir up the shit between Xido and some of the contestants again? No thanks. There was no "wrong" to be "righted" and especially not by you. As touching as it is when someone defends you, I think Xido would prefer to let the issue die quietly than have embittered contestants entering for the wrong reason and causing animosity. Although I have to say that I'm not quite sure how you pointing out that one of the entries is a wyvern too late really corrects an unrelated issue.

[Katja] when you reference heavily in a piece submitted to the contest, you're also supposed to submit a link to the reference. This is what Paul is referring to. However, in your case, the entry was deemed just different enough for you to not have to do that, which is why we didn't ask you to.

2008-02-19 [Sheracle]: Hehe.. Yearh okay.. You got a point.. ^-^ I'm just sad that I didn't see the contest untill now where it's in mainstreet and too late to do anything.. :)

2008-02-19 [windowframe]: :P The contests are announced in the news when they start, but there are on-going creature contests at the Elftown creature Marathon, so it might be worth sticking that wiki on watch if you're interested in mythical creatures. :) And as Artsie said, we're considering doing another dragon contest at some point.

2008-02-19 [Sheracle]: Okay.. Thanks :)

2008-02-19 [Paul Doyle]: I'd be truly mortified if there was a "right" kind of dragon. Someone's bound to be offended, considering there are myriad cultural and personal takes on "dragon". In my view, the diversity IS the beauty.

2008-02-20 [J. "dragonruler" Rouse]: Gee, SilverFire, I wasn't saying that is exactly what everyone was thinking. I was just trying to think of why everyone was making it a big deal. Merely suggesting what I thought, not assumed to be what was on peoples' minds.

2008-02-20 [windowframe]: And I'm just telling you why that's not a plausible explanation. :p Don't take it personally. ;)

2008-02-21 [Artsieladie]: Note: Baby and baby looking dragons, dragons WITHOUT wings, and ANTHRO dragons WILL NOT be considered as TYPICAL DRAGONS.

There's nothing in this statement that says Wyverns wouldn't be accepted. :P

2008-02-21 [windowframe]: Other than the fact that's it's not actually a dragon, but a dragon related creature. -.- They have a point that maybe it shouldn't be in the poll, but some of them should certainly have pointed it out sooner. Saying that a wyvern is allowed to represent a typical dragon is just silly. Like saying a unicorn should be allowed to represent a typical pegasus.

2008-02-21 [Pheonix~]: I really like C because not only does it in my opinion look like a typical dragon but also green is a very good color because it shows up easier in many things.

2008-02-21 [Sheracle]: Agress 100% with [windowframe] ^-^

2008-02-23 [Kurai Tenma]: All that separates entry (C) from being a dragon is two front legs. That's hardly worth arguing over. Dragons and wyverns resemble each other. A unicorn and a pegasus don't have that relationship, aside from being horse-based. That said, you can't be sure entry (A) isn't a wyvern either. All you have is the head, which is the same for a wyvern and dragon.

2008-02-24 [windowframe]: Dragons and wyverns resemble each other in being draconic, pegasus and unicorns resemble each other in being equine. But somehow the two sets don't share the same comparison? It's silly to have a typical wyvern representing dragons. Simple as.

2008-02-24 [Kurai Tenma]: Tell me, how do unicorns and pegasus compare other than being horse-based? One has a horn, one has wings. Wyverns have 2 legs, dragons have 4. Aside from that, Wyverns and Dragons are the same. Though, the argument is rather ridiculous. If you get a book on dragons, wyverns will be in the book.

BTW, draconic means "of or relating to a dragon." A wyvern is directly related to the dragon, a direct comparison. The unicorn and pegasus are not comparable, but are comparable to horses. Without the horse, no relationship is drawn. That's an extra species. There's a difference in a direct branch off, and cousin.

2008-02-24 [windowframe]: "Will be in the book" but not on the front cover of the book. The purpose of this poll was to decide which dragon would go on the front cover, as it were. It's just silly to have a wyvern there - it would be in the 'related creatures' section. If we're going to get technical, we can just say that dragons are different lizards. One cousin got more appendages. But there's not much point in that. Fact is, a creature that isn't the creature the page is about, shouldn't be the creature that appears at the top of the page as an illustration of what said creature typically looks like. 

2008-02-25 [Aura Darklight]: I do not think that dragons are different lizards, they are different from mere lizards in many ways and not just by having wing or breathing fire. I have studyed the beliefs of dragons in many cultures and I do not believe that it is right to compare them to mere lizards for they are no where near the same things. For there are many different types of dragon and each type unique to the different cultures that believe in them so do not try to go technical if you have not spent time trying to learn about dragons in the first place.

2008-02-25 [Kurai Tenma]: The "lizard" would be the related creature. A wyvern is a type of dragon, not a cousin relative. Dragon is a general, generic term. Would you say a Chinese dragon isn't a typical dragon? It's one of the originals, if you're going to be honest. Also, for your 'technical' view. I'll simplify.

Dragon -> Wyvern is a parent->child relationship. That means that a Wyvern is a dragon.

To go to your equine example.

Unicorn <- Horse -> Pegasus. Unicorn and Pegasus have no relationship. Both have a parent->child with horse. So, a Unicorn is a Horse, and Pegasus is a Horse, but a Pegasus is not a Unicorn. Common, basic, horse-sense.

To go back to the rules: "Note: Baby and baby looking dragons, dragons WITHOUT wings, and ANTHRO dragons WILL NOT be considered as TYPICAL DRAGONS."

It seems that [Artsieladie] was correct. The rules didn't state legs. No one said a typical dragon has four. A typical Western dragon, which in and of itself is another type of dragon. If the rules had stated FOUR legs, I'm sure the artist would have added the front set to make it acceptable as an entry.

Also, this is a ridiculous argument to keep up just to be the one correct. If you look at the poll, giving the votes of entry C to entry F (second place), doesn't alter the fact that entry I is still currently winning by quite a bit.

2008-02-25 [windowframe]: The rules do state however, typical dragons. We're not questioning whether it's a typical dragon but whether it's a dragon at all. You were the one who said that a wyvern was a relative of the dragon, now you're saying it is a dragon, make your mind up, please. :) This "argument" is not being continued for the sake of being right, but for the sake of making sure our creature page is right. If I thought you had a compelling argument why we should allow a wyvern to represent the typical dragon, I would have accepted. As is, I don't think you have. You have an argument about why the wyvern should be on a dragon page somewhere - which was never in question at all.

[Aura Darklight], I was referring to Komodo Dragons which are in fact, lizards. So please don't tell me not to get technical because you've assumed my ignorance of a subject. :P I'm sure you are very knowledgeable about dragons, but that doesn't make my opinion redundant. :)

2008-02-25 [Paul Doyle]: Hmm, shouldn't we wrap this voting up and move along to something else to vote on? This endless debate in these comments really serves no purpose. We could also debate whether or not witches are made of wood. :P

2008-02-25 [windowframe]: Well I guess that settles it. The wise sage has spoken. Paul thinks this debate is pointless, so it must be. :)

2008-02-25 [Sunrose]: Eh there's nothing forcing anyone to go here, not even a watch-feature.
In general we try to keep contest-polls up until there are about a 1000 votes, there aren't nearly enough now.

2008-02-25 [Paul Doyle]: Ah, I'm just saying. Personally, I think witches do float on water---so they are made of wood :P

2008-02-26 [Cina]: But if a witch doesn't have arms, is it still a witch? Or a wyvern?

2008-02-26 [crikketcandy]: A duck!

2008-02-26 [Aura Darklight]: I agree we are getting no where with it

2008-02-26 [EmeraldGrizzly]: It is as simple as this in my opinion... 4-Legged Dragon, 2-Legged Dragon, Chinese Lion Dragon, Dog Dragon, Chinese Oriental, Wyvern, Whelp, Half-Dragon, ETC. They are all dragons, just depends on where you come from. Dragons are all over the world in all shapes sizes and names. Its a dragon... period.

2008-02-26 [Paul Doyle]: Dog Dragon = Falkor from the "Never-Ending Story?" I think the baddies could have beaten Atreyu, Bastian and the rest simply by distracting Falkor with a gigantic Frisbee. "Good doggie-um-dragon!"

2008-02-26 [Paul Doyle]: I believe we could get this contest closer to 1000 votes through the usage of an official alarm-note and maybe people with real pull (don't look at me, guys!) encouraging friends/relations/whatever to vote in this poll if they have not already done so. Since [windowframe] thinks me a wise sage though I'm probably far closer to being a wise-ass, then this is my prophecy. Or something :P

2008-02-26 [Khronos Atmosphaera]: [Cina] If a witch doesn't have arms, I think she is simply handicapped. But I could be wrong...

2008-02-26 [Paul Doyle]: Yes, but as long as the witch floats whatever the circumstance . . . then she is made of wood---BURN HER!

2008-02-27 [Kurai Tenma]: I LOVE how my point was twisted. Hence, I avoided the situation. However, my point was "dragon" is a generic term, and your typical dragon isn't typical to everyone. Also, I explained the type of dragon you are considering to be typical is not "dragon" either. It's just the one you associate with the term.

Paul, you're awesome. Though, if a piece of wood floats in water, and still becomes water logged and soaked, and won't burn. How can you test if the witch is made of wood by trying to make her float in water? She wouldn't burn after that. =P

2008-02-27 [Khronos Atmosphaera]: Ha ha! I'm just playing along.

2008-02-27 [Paul Doyle]: Kurai . . . perhaps give Brave Sir Robin a Holy Hand Grenade to toss at the watersoaked witch?

2008-02-27 [Paul Doyle]: http://falkorno.ytmnd.com/

2008-02-27 [windowframe]: Hm, if you're talking to me, Kurai, I wasn't trying to twist your point. Nor is the definition used by the ECM my idea of a typical dragon. I'm pretty sure I didn't mention what my idea of a typical dragon is, so I'm also at a loss as to how you know it's not typical. :)But I suppose you mean by 'the dragon you consider to be typical' to be the definition from the ECM?' I don't see you explaining anywhere that that definition is wrong, though. :( But, forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be employing the term 'dragon' in two separate senses. In once sense as referring specifically to dragons as an individual type of creature, and in another using it as a general term for all "draconic" creatures. The ECM page doesn't refer to it in a sense of 'any draconic' creature, just as dragons.

2008-02-29 [Nita]: Mmm... *puts up an alarm note as per Paul's suggestion* Perhaps we need an official alarm boss :)

2008-02-29 [Paul Doyle]: Heed the alarm-call, everyone . . . you know you want to :P

2008-02-29 [Paul Doyle]: (You also don't want Pauly the Anthro-Dragon to dry-hump you if you refuse to vote . . . )

2008-02-29 [EnigmaFlame]: Dragons rule!!!

2008-03-01 [Leper Khan]: Why are we voting on a typical dragon? Anyone who is not blind has seen a typical dragon. Where's the most creative/imaginative dragon poll at?

2008-03-02 [windowframe]: They're to illustrate an information page on dragons, and on an information page, it's best to have illustrations of a typical dragon. :) Maybe we'll do a contest for imaginative dragons next. ;)

2008-03-04 [kat khaotic]: No fore arms = wyvern Arms =dragon

2008-03-04 [Paul Doyle]: Wyvern = old argument. Arrgh!

2008-03-05 [Khronos Atmosphaera]: omg... one more vote... to be one thousand.

2008-03-05 [Paul Doyle]: Wow . . . 1000 votes! o__O

2008-03-05 [windowframe]: If you find the comments so frustrating Paul. You should stay away.No one is forcing you to check here, but people are allowed their opinions, even if you think it's old.

2008-03-06 [loam]: (i.) seems to have realism problems. the wings seems to have the appearance of stone. though good, the stonish quality lost my vote.

2008-03-07 [Ronin-Sparrow]: Funny, the stonish quality is precisely what got my vote. :D

2008-03-08 [The Scarlet Pumpernickle]: wow... I didn't even clue in that 3 was a wyvern.. and I voted for it. :P