What's up with gender?

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2008-11-03 06:37:01

Last author: Veltzeh
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It came up in #Elftown (Elfchat) again. What is it with me and my genderless characters?
I became aware of gender when I was about 16. Before that, I just thought people were different. Sexes had been pretty clear to me and I don't think I even thought that they might go beyond immediate physical things. Looking back, I think that I thought that there was some sort of profound difference between female and male underpants and toilets which I couldn't figure out as a kid and kept waiting for myself to realize it. Then the realization sunk: there wasn't really any difference; if there was any, was very superficial.

So, two sexes? Yeah right.
I've come to think that when things are simplified enough, we can think that there are four sexes: intersex, transsex, female and male.
And, again simplified: Intersexed are those who can't naturally be defined exclusively male or female. Transsexed are those who by some way alter their physiology so that they aren't exclusively male or female. This definition tends to assure that all transsexed people are "intersexed" as well. Vice versa, too, but it is possible that an intersex person will live without any medical intervention.
What is the line between the sexes? I have no clue. Here's a list of things one should think about:
– a completely sterile but otherwise "normal" female or male
– breastless female
– CAIS people (intersex condition where a "normal" genetic male is immune to testosterone; isn't "truly" (genetically) female, can't be male—wait, what?)
– female, uterus removed
– male with undescended testes
– a female/male with a totally masculine/feminine mindset, values, interest and so forth as appropriate to the culture, and doesn't want to live in the assigned gender role
– as above, but WANTS to or has no trouble living in the assigned gender role
I don't particularly like the inequality that a sex system like this creates, not to even mention all the social and mental fluff that humans have piled on the physical base.

So, two genders? Yeah right!
Gender roles, mental gender and social gender vary according to person, not to even mention cultures. I have no idea what to do with these. I'm just lost. Reasons, justifications, traditions and idiocy are rampant. Every person will give a different definition of man and woman, even if there might be similarities and trends.
My conclusion is usually that there are an infinite number or genders (whatever) and therefore they are irrelevant, so there are none. We should come up with a better reason to divide into groups.

Why can't people be what they want regardless of sex?

The assigning of genders is sort of self-causing. It would work okay if everyone stopped doing it simultaneously. A kid raised without a gender (yes, I like to think of myself as one) has a high chance of being a total outcast and ending up miserable because the world is so stupid. Likewise, a kid raised and conditioned into a gender will have a higher chance of feeling the acceptance and security of other people, even though the role might not be "ideal".
Is it better to be conditioned to be a more or less mindless drone?

I'm always creeping with doubt when it comes to most things, also this. And even mathematics is not safe.
Have I done something to myself or changed my personality just so I could thwart the "mindless drones"? Is that a bad thing or not? Why did I actually fail at being genderized? Sure, my parents didn't force me to, but I should've gotten more than enough clues from the rest of my extended family, kindergarten and school. Though, it might also be because I fail at socializing and/or emoting (hello Asperger's Syndrome, yay), I suppose.

Veltzeh

2006-10-04 [Lorian]: hehe.....I would have to wholeheartedly agree with that :P

2008-10-31 [Nita]: Nooo, body parts of all sorts is what's right about biological gender (a.k.a. sex) ;P

2008-10-31 [Veltzeh]: I should change that "wrong" to "unfair".

2008-10-31 [Nita]: Well, it's biology... You can't exactly accuse reality of being "unfair", IMO. That's rather futile :)

2008-10-31 [Veltzeh]: Basically I could same the same about psychological things—it's all self-deception, isn't it? Might as well have it cover everything. How about when biology works differently even when it should be the "same"?

2008-10-31 [Nita]: Mmm? Which psychological things? Well, of course, if I designed the human species, it would be different. But that doesn't mean that biology is being wrong or mean, just like entropy isn't evil.

2008-11-01 [Veltzeh]: Most people can be really effectively conditioned (so that they, for example, can only sleep when the lights are on). And when along comes a person who hasn't been conditioned that way, well, too bad for em, because there's no way to turn off the lights. Is it unfair that the lights can't be turned off or that the person hasn't been conditioned like everyone else?
And I already said I should change it to "unfair" (so it wouldn't be "wrong") (I'm not even going to touch "mean"). :P Of course, everyone knows that life is unfair, so who should care? Maybe it's just another personality flaw of mine to want everything be as fair as it can. I acknowledge well enough that everything can't ever be fair anyway.

2008-11-01 [Nita]: Neither is unfair. Refusing to do your best to accommodate someone for no reason is :P

Life is not unfair :/ It just is. Nature has no freedom to make choices, unfair or otherwise. But we (and a few other species, sometimes) do have the freedom to help or hurt others, so we make choices that can be judged in a moral framework.

But I don't like the concept of "fairness" in general. It feels resentful and subjective. I prefer trust, reason, generosity, compassion, inclusion, kindness, cooperation, love... :)

2008-11-01 [Veltzeh]: Gah, another topic off the tracks. Oh well. :P
Hm, I see I put "life" there as being unfair and not nature. Nature may be as it is, but people tend to make life in general unfair (insert a generic slums vs. high class comparison here).
I don't know what I should think about the concept of fairness. I don't like getting little while other people get nearly everything they want, and I don't like it when I get upset or unhappy about something that other people seemingly don't "care about" or think to acknowledge. What is the issue there and how can it be "fixed"?
And what do YOU think love is? I've tried to ask this from who knows how many people and everyone says the different thing and then try to vehemently defend their definitions or become nonchalant because it's different for everyone anyway. I've come to dislike that word a lot.

2008-11-02 [Nita]: Hmmm... I have come to believe that people make bad decisions when they are misinformed. After all, the human brain is not magic, so, as with any information processing system, it's garbage in, garbage out :P

Sadly, sometimes we become invested in misinformation (due to things like "God is the only good source of ethics" or "my worth is determined by my social status / obedience / intelligence" learned in childhood) and hold onto them when we shouldn't - and eventually someone gets hurt. The good news is that having a false picture of the world results in a kind of discomfort called cognitive dissonance when faced with reality, so we feel better when we finally stop clinging to misconceptions. And when you feel better, it's easier to love.

There is some overlap in what everyone says, and that's close to the truth. Or, rather: it's impossible to describe exactly, but every description is like a tangent, and when you have enough of those, you get an idea of its actual shape. Mental states and feelings are always hard to define verbally, because they engage the non-verbal parts of our brains. Good poetry and prose can come close, though.

And, well, when you like someone or something, or doing something, a lot, and are happy just because this awesome person or thing exists in this world, that happiness is a bit of love :)

2008-11-02 [Veltzeh]: I agree. (Otherwise known as the conversation-killer, eh? X))
Your definition of love is once again one that I haven't heard before, by the way. :P

2008-11-02 [Nita]: Cool :D Feel free to call me whenever you feel like being preached at again ;P

2008-11-03 [Veltzeh]: I didn't feel like that to begin with.

2008-11-03 [Nita]: Sorry, then :/

2008-11-03 [Veltzeh]: Well, you caused me to make this page a bit better (I think?) so it's okay. :P

2008-11-03 [Nita]: Yay x) *hugs*

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