Original-Elftown-Preserved_Redesigning

2011-07-06 [Stephen]: Hm, I happen to like the ideas and designs posted on ERA and Redesigning ET.

'Sides, isn't it more community-oriented to give all the members a chance to say what they like, and want, and see the most popular things and then use those for the look/feel and design of Elftown, versus saying "This is how it is, we like it this way, so we're not changing it"? :P

2011-07-06 [Artsieladie]: Well, this is fine. It's your prerogative. I'm not against making Elftown more or better organised, but making Elftown COMPLETELY into a TOTALLY different site, to the point where Elftown would NO longer BE Elftown, is a whole other matter.

This page is not denying people the opportunity to say what they want, think, etc.. The other pages that I've seen thus far are pushing for a complete make-over. This page is to offer an alternative for KEEPING Elftown as she is, design-wise and just work on improving "what now is". I haven't seen much mentioned in the line of keeping Elftown as she is and working with what [Hedda] already has in place. Why on earth is it so important to make Elftown just like all those other dime-a-dozen websites out there?

2011-07-06 [Stephen]: I think the idea is to modify Elftown to be more pleasant to see and use for everyone, not to mimic a different site. =p

The complete makeover pages seem halfway popular, but it doesn't mean everything's going to change. Though I REALLY hope the Mainstreet and sitewide navigation change, cuz they're annoying.. xD

2011-07-06 [windowframe]: I'm sorry you think my suggested designs are insignificant, mundane, dreary and dime-a-dozen. But the point is not to make Elftown look like any other website out there, but just to bring the graphics up-to-date. For me, whatever Elftown looks like, it will still be Elftown, because it's not the graphics that make this site what it is, it's the features that we have: the wikis, the forums, how much freedom our members have to do what they want and of course, above all else: the members themselves. :) I'm also not sure that I like the implication that we only "truly" love Elftown if we want to keep the basic design it has now. I'd rather like to think that I love this site, I just don't see the basic graphic design as important to the heart of this site as you do. :)

2011-07-06 [Artsieladie]: ..And this is fine, too, this is your opinion. But I think an alternative to such a drastic make-over should be just as well covered. I think changes for the better can be adopted without the need to totally revamp the entire site.

For me, whatever Elftown looks like, it will still be Elftown, because it's not the graphics that make this site what it is, it's the features that we have: the wikis, the forums, how much freedom our members have to do what they want and of course, above all else: the members themselves. :)

Yes, this is true, but... atmosphere plays a significant role as to how all this comes together and you seem to think that Elftown is "ugly" as it is now. Well, I happen to think Deviantart, for one example, is ugly, but also very cold and very impersonal. Besides, if what you say is true, then just as you are being critical of my take, then I could also apply the very same with your view. If you think all you've mentioned is what really makes Elftown, Elftown, then why the need to change it? This reasoning works for both sides of the coin.

You want to remove EVERYTHING, change EVERYTHING as we Elftowners have known and enjoyed Elftown to be. No more houses.. there must be "profiles" and these profiles are to be like other sites. No more "Whee! You have a new message". No more column, no more of what is traditionally Elftown at all. Then if some of the implemented features aren't used by many, then what, just omit them? What's so wrong about Elftown's colours? Pea (pee) green, greys, and those ugly Deviantart colours is what makes for the dull, drab, dreary effect.

I just don't see the basic graphic design as important to the heart of this site as you do.

Apparently you must, since you want to give Elftown a complete and total make-over.

2011-07-06 [Artsieladie]: Also... just where is Lilo going to fit in with your "all new" Elftown? At what point will [Hedda] be told that Lilo no longer should be the mascot, before or after he does all the work to change Elftown?

2011-07-06 [windowframe]: "But I think an alternative to such a drastic make-over should be just as well covered."

Sure it should be, and I don't mind either linking to this page, or posting your redesign ideas on Redesigning ET. :)

"If you think all you've mentioned is what really makes Elftown, Elftown, then why the need to change it? This reasoning works for both sides of the coin."
Sorry, apparently I wasn't very clear there. Me saying that the graphic design isn't important to the essence of Elftown is not me saying it's not important at all. Just because something isn't the heart and soul of ET doesn't mean I wouldn't want to improve it if I thought I could.

"You want to remove EVERYTHING, change EVERYTHING"
No I don't.

"No more houses.. there must be "profiles" and these profiles are to be like other sites."
I never said that. I'm perfectly fine with them still being called houses. :)

"Then if some of the implemented features aren't used by many, then what, just omit them?"
Well yeah. If we establish that only three people ever use a feature, and for everyone else it's just annoying clutter, then I'd argue it needs to be pruned. But I don't want to get rid of anything first without checking exactly how many people are using it, how, and what for.

"No more "Whee! You have a new message".
I never said I wanted to get rid of this, either.

"Also... just where is Lilo going to fit in with your "all new" Elftown?"
Dunno, hadn't thought about that yet. :)

"At what point will [Hedda] be told that Lilo no longer should be the mascot,"
Well, since I haven't said she shouldn't be any more, I guess the point would be if we ever actually decided that. ;) But I also don't know how much he cares about Lilo being the mascot, either. I guess that's something I need to ask him about. :) I'm also curious as to what part of my graphic mock-ups have managed to give you the impression I was saying Lilo shouldn't be the mascot? Clearly I've made a communication fail somewhere, I'd rather like to fix it. :P

"he does all the work to change Elftown?"
He's not doing ALL the work. ;)

2011-07-06 [windowframe]: Also: I would like to point out that all my redesigns mock-ups so far are suggestions. They are not me declaring that this is now set in stone and tough if you don't like it >=O. I would like to think that I've made that very clear (on the page itself by acknowledging that some things need to be put to poll, and in the wording of the news item inviting people to the page). I am not saying *anything* MUST be how I've suggested. If you'd suggested on Redesigning ET that the houses should still be called 'houses' (I guess somewhere I wrote them as 'profiles' instead) this is feedback I would have been more than happy to take on board: just as I have been happy to take your other feedback on board. :)

2011-07-06 [Paul Doyle]: ET has to be brought into the 21st Century, but not at the expense of its still-beating heart and soul. Sharon, surely you see there is plenty of "best of both worlds" sentiment on Silvie's wiki? I do like the green, yet I dislike all the antiquated, clunky shit that's forbidding to the Internet newbie (like my wife, who I'm trying to convince joining ET since she sometimes visits exported wikis). When I joined this website in June 2003 I was in fact an Internet newbie, having delayed getting my first PC for a good ten years. ET was absolutely bewildering to me then, and it doesn't have a fraction as much clutter and crap that it now has (and none of those horrible ads, but that's a whole new can of worms right there).

I say we short-circuit the silly drama, put aside our differences and work together on well-known pages like redesigning et and era. If we want more quality Elftowners we have to cut the bullshit already, even if the bullshit starts and ends with us. Otherwise this website is going to continue languishing, and all the wonderful work the current crew is trying to accomplish, with our help (the community) is going to be all for naught.

I'm going to post most of this comment on redesigning et in case this comment is deleted  ;-)

2011-07-06 [Artsieladie]: As I will be adding links to this page. I just put through what I had before I lost it again.

..And there's nothing wrong with being open for improvement, because this door must never be shut, but retaining some of the old, while incorporating something new, keeps past and present connected, while also being open to the future.

If you don't want to change everything design-wise, then where is there anything about what IS currently present? Your designs do not reflect anything of what "is" that I can see.

Your design says "edit profile". If this isn't what you meant to imply, then why did you put "profile"? You can't have house and then "edit profile". This could be confusing to some and since this mission is to help to minimise confusion...

Just how will you know exactly how many use what?

I don't see any showing of the "Whee! You have a new message".

Well, I remember very distinctly in the forum when the idea was brought up about having a contest to have a new mascot and I also remember very distinctly how [Hedda] responded to this idea. Since it 'appears' that Elftown is being envisioned without 'any' of her original design in tact, it also stands to reason that it may well be being assumed that a new mascot would be apropos to go along with the 'all new' Elftown. I mean now, if you bought a whole new outfit, including shoes, you wouldn't likely want to still use the laces from your old shoes for instance.

He's not doing ALL the work. ;)
My mistake. I forgot about the whole slew of programmers he has to help him. ;)

I can understand if you or anyone thinks I'm just trying to shoot down what you're working on. But on the other two pages, there doesn't seem to be welcome too awful much, more along the lines of both making changes for the better and preserving some of what Elftown has been. I like the greens on Elftown as they are, I like her ivy border and her unique buttons, and several other features that are unique only to Elftown. Tossing everything aside that are distinctive characteristics associated only with Elftown, will then make Elftown look and feel just like other sites on the Web.

2011-07-06 [Artsieladie]: First off, Paul, I think you should refrain from labeling a differing opinion as "drama". This is part of the problem on Elftown. When someone challenges the opinions of others, right away it is dubbed as "drama". If this be the case, then your spiel here is also "drama".

Second off, I do not plan on deleting your comment here.

Third off, I'm not against making changes, but changes for the better can be made without the need to change "everything".

2011-07-06 [windowframe]: "If you don't want to change everything design-wise, then where is there anything about what IS currently present? "
Sorry, I don't quite understand the question, can you rephrase, or otherwise clarify for me? >_<

"Your design says "edit profile". If this isn't what you meant to imply, then why did you put "profile"? You can't have house and then "edit profile". "
And I would have been quite happy to change this, had you pointed it out. I was pretty lazy about the buttons. I more just wanted to show where they'd be and how many, rather than the exact wording (or even font) of them. :) I'd also point out that the Redeisgning Wiki does actually refer to 'houses' occasionally, as well as profiles. :3 This is a sketchy, design and debate phase: I don't pretend there are no kinks or mistakes in it, but this is precisely when people are supposed to point out potential problems like that. :)

"I don't see any showing of the "Whee! You have a new message". "
This is true. You also don't see any current mockups of Main Street, the forums, the notes page, etc. I hope this doesn't mean you think I want to get rid of those, too. :p There's no mock-up that shows the 'Wheee, new messages!' 'Cause I haven't yet made a mock-up of the potential places where I'd put it :) At the moment I'm undecided between having it in the however-over pop-up box like wiki-changes and edits, or just having it as an option in the drop down menu from the top nav bar. I'm thinking the top nav bar would be a better place, and I can't think of a good reason why it should be listed on both.

"it also stands to reason that it may well be being assumed that a new mascot would be apropos to go along with the 'all new' Elftown"
I think you should have asked, instead of just assuming this. As I said before, personally, I've thusfar given no thought to the mascot side of things. But Maybe I'll go seek out that forum thread now. :)

"My mistake. I forgot about the whole slew of programmers he has to help him. ;)"
Well, I'd hardly call True and myself 'a slew', but we're certainly doing more of the graphic-redesign work right now. ;) Hedda is busy working on the forums, I think.

"I like the greens on Elftown as they are"
You said this, and I went away and produced a mock-up in colours more similar to what ET has now. If you thought they still weren't similar enough, you should have said something and I've had mane *another* potential colour scheme. :) Though I wouldn't want to use *exactly* what ET has now, partly because I think it uses a few too many different shades of green in total for various things, and partly because one of the most common feed-backs is that all text areas need to have a light background in order to make reading easier, so I think the house description boxes need to be a lighter green as standard, to take that into account.

2011-07-06 [windowframe]: Also, the older-style buttons are actually one of the reasons why using different style-sheets isn't great. Some of them have green backgrounds, some of them actually don't, so the colour of some of the buttons becomes the colour of whatever background you change your stylesheet too. It can be pretty ugly. <_<

2011-07-07 [Thunder Cid]: May I suggest putting up a public poll? Letting the members weigh in on whether they want to see Elftown redesigned or keep it as it is? That way we at least have some clue to go on.

2011-07-08 [windowframe]: Hey, Artsie can you tell me where in my mock-up the stray 'edit profile' button is? :3 I checked and as far as I can see, all my mock-ups do actually say 'House'. I found one in Kaimee's re-skin, but I can't change that – I don't have the file for it.

2011-07-08 [windowframe]: Eltown *needs* redesigning. I'm quite happy to put the various redesigns to poll, Artsie's included (thought to make it fair, it'd be good if you could produce a bigger mock-up, Artsie, that showed a whole re-done page, rather than just the top nav – one of either the house page would be good).

2011-07-12 [Artsieladie]: I believe I saw both "house" and "edit profile". If I get to it, I'll have a re-look.

Been kinda' halted with what I can do with this computer. Have had to hire techs to work on it and almost $500 later. But I did manage to get a few new examples made of the nav bar with suggested drop-down menus, which I'm here to put up. I'm trying to work on others between computer issues, some being worked on on my new computer, which I will then have to transfer to this one.

2011-07-18 [Mortified Penguin]: I'm okay with this design.