2011-05-24 [Sunrose]: Well, good luck on the exam then :P

2011-05-24 [AuroraLumos]: :) thanks

2011-05-25 [Alexi Ice]: Alright, if you have a behind-the-scenes animal controlling you I will def. support you if you make a website! Since I am, myself, controlled by my pup Loki.

Also! Good luck on the exam!!

2011-05-25 [AuroraLumos]: This time in ... 2 years maybe I'll have multiple tiny ponies controlling everything I do no doubt :3
Adorable ponies will be adorable (thanks a bunch for the luck, I'm pretty sure I'll need it)

2011-05-28 [Anvikit]: I think if you want a flier to be circulated it needs to be more informative and as professional (proper grammar) as possible, if you want this to be presented as a site for kids.

If I go to the website elf12 no where is there a way for me to sign up. It's very confusing.?

also as a parent there is there no way for me to check the content of the site before I let loose my children upon it. ?

Is it a monitored site? Meaning all images and content are reviewed before published to insure someone doesn't post inappropriate images or content?


Digging a bit more I just found a way to sign up.. and unfortunately the sign up page had a few troubling sections..
Private Information
Here you can put private information that you only want your friends to see. Like your address, phone number and passwords to your friends only pages.

and
Name
Your full real name if you want.

Also is there an age limit/range? the name ET12 makes me think of younger children, but the info page I stumbled upon says it's geared twards teenagers? Teens and children are way different in my mind

I think that the info page should be listed on the main page for parents to be able to read before they sign their kids up, most people might not be as used to et as I am and want to spend time/ think to go digging around to find info on this site.

Another troubling stumbling point I found was the use of copyrighted characters for the various role titles, this shows unprofessional in non-adherence to copywrite laws ..

and this little bit was confusing in the rules list:
G-4. The following types of images are not allowed anywhere on Elf12, not even private wiki-pages: Images that display extreme violence, images that show or promote self-mutilation, nude/partially nude/suggestive images with minors in them.
Non-pornographic artistic nudity is allowed, provided that the image(s) is on a view protected wiki-page. All artistic nudity, drawing or not, must be tasteful. Also, links to it are not to be displayed where the younger members can stumble on them. Any nude or almost nude pictures with minors in them found anywhere on site will result in a permanent banning from Elf12 at minimum.
Note: It's okay to show your baby laying on its stomach with its butt in the air, but it is not okay to show a nude of your five year old, for example.


I mean If I print this flyer and distribute it to my community and friends, then something unexpected happens.. ?

2011-05-28 [Lothuriel]: If you do choose to do this, I would suggest simply hanging the fliers on local bulletin boards. If you hand them out individually, you may be viewed as a creepy creeper.

2011-05-28 [Lothuriel]: No it is not a monitored site in that sense. There are guards and moderators just as they are here on Elftown. If a violation is found, it is taken care of. It would be impossible to have to approve every image uploaded before it is published.

I see no problem with the sharing of that personal information. What a child puts on a website is up to the parents and is not the responsibility of the E12 Crew. Besides, it would be better for them to put it there than in their house description or a public wiki for everyone to view.

Yes, E12 is for children under 13. It mentions that in the descriptions.

"think that the info page should be listed on the main page for parents to be able to read before they sign their kids up, most people might not be as used to et as I am and want to spend time/ think to go digging around to find info on this site." - This is a valid point. The information used to be there, I am not sure why it wsa removed.

"Another troubling stumbling point I found was the use of copyrighted characters for the various role titles, this shows unprofessional in non-adherence to copywrite laws .. " How is this unprofessional and how exactly does it not apply to copyright laws? The images are all fan art and the artists are not making a profit from them. 


And, I think the G4 rule is pretty self explanatory.

2011-05-28 [Anvikit]: I was confused by the age, because of this line from the What is Elf12:

"Welcome to Elf12! What is Elf12, you wonder? Elf12 is an internet community for like-minded teenagers to interact with one another in a positive and safe environment, watched by parents and governed by the Council and Guards."

As far as the nudity goes, I think when children are involved it would be better to just exclude all nudity artistic or tasteful or not, even if hidden.. that way there is less confusion, and no chance of abuse.. but that is my opinion.

This website allows children to sign up WITHOUT their parents permission.. if this is posted in a public place.. like say a library and a child signs up without informing their parents, then the parent may not be aware that their child has even posted this private information online. It is dangerous, especially to advocate including such information.. when really anyone can sign up, including internet predators.

If anything a warning upon signup not to share your real name address or any personal information on the internet would be a more responsible approach.

2011-05-28 [Lothuriel]: "This website allows children to sign up WITHOUT their parents permission.. if this is posted in a public place.. like say a library and a child signs up without informing their parents, then the parent may not be aware that their child has even posted this private information online. It is dangerous, especially to advocate including such information.. when really anyone can sign up, including internet predators. "

Yes, this is true. But you have to understand that it is the responsibility of the parent to know what their child is doing, not the crew of E12. 

There are several wikis and so forth on E12 about internet safety. 

"As far as the nudity goes, I think when children are involved it would be better to just exclude all nudity artistic or tasteful or not, even if hidden.. that way there is less confusion, and no chance of abuse.. but that is my opinion." - So you think a baby's butt is the same as porn? What of the children who are 12 to 13 who are studying art and draw pictures of the naked form? Schools in the US frown upon such things but in a lot of other countries it is a perfectly acceptable learning tool.

2011-05-29 [Anvikit]: Still if something were to happen it would fall back on the website.. legally.

I saw a clause in the rules saying:

"Please remember that as the owner of a wikipage, you are responsible for what is displayed on your page. If any legal or serious problems come from your page, they fall to you, not Elf12. If you are under the legal age to be tried for crimes, then your parents may be responsible for your actions."

This is not true at all. There is no terms of service to agree to upon signing up for the site, and even so if it is a minor signing up not an adult then they can not enter into a legal obligation. Is this page even mandatory to view before entering into ET12?

Yes I agree with parental monitoring, but not all parents always have a clue.. and if something happens to their child, legal action, if a parent so deems, can be taken on the website. That's why websites have TOS that you have to agree to, and no children are not able to enter into TOS obligations only their guardian is able to do so on their behalf.


I am saying that if you allow a loophole there can always be room for abuse. Sure it may seem harmless to you, but someone else may find it offensive.. it's just easier to leave it out. and as far as nudity in artwork, again on a website dealing with children especially potentially young children it is better to just leave it out.

I've taken my children to art galleries before with nude works before, but would I want them to take said pictures and show them off to all their friends and their friends parents out of context? Probably not. (It's always the nudes that garner the kids attention the most too because of it's taboo nature)

So if a child finds an artistic nude on the site, then shows all their friends this site with the nude drawings on it.. is that how you want the site to be reflected? and then a parent finds out and learns that this site is geared twards kids, especially younger kids? You do not see where a problem could arise?

In this digital age, some children have computers in their own rooms and are allowed online without the watchful eye of their parents standing over their shoulder every minute.. but if the parents suddenly find something wrong then it's the website's fault, not the parents lack of supervision in their mind for presenting such material in a manner geared twards minors.

2011-06-24 [Stephen]: Jeeze, I wouldn't have even known this page existed if not for Alexi's posting on the Elf12 forums. /=

I'm going to mention it in the Elf12 Council forums, but I feel at this point we'd be better off scrapping Elf12 and instead just making some private-forum only pages on Elftown for kids, if we really want to keep up the safe pages for kids idea. Elf12 really would only interest Elftown's parents, and they'd more than likely feel much better about it with their kids on the same site. Elftown is also more managed, with a more experienced and known crew. We've re-vamped and restaffed Elf12 over and over and it just fell through every time.


Oh, also, [Anvikit] has a really good point in her previous comment.

2011-06-24 [Alexi Ice]: Agreed. I just don't have the time to commit to that site like I used to, considering even my favorite member (Lav cat) is gone now. I will miss it, I really put a lot of work into that sight but...it's just...it had a good run.

2011-06-24 [windowframe]: just making some private-forum only pages on Elftown for kids,
I like this idea.

2011-06-24 [Akayume]: I do too. (:

2011-06-24 [nehirwen]: I like that too. :)

2011-06-24 [Alexi Ice]: That's because Simpet is awesome <3

2011-06-24 [Stephen]: =D

2011-06-24 [Stephen]: Well, as I said, I mentioned it in the Elf12 Crew forums, but I actually would like something along those lines. Just make Elf12 the "main" page, which will allow free viewing so people can know what it is, and then all the subpages where the younger members can mingle, would be forum-guarded. Besides, to be honest, I feel as though being around on Elf12 is pretty much a waste of effort now, and I'd rather put the time I'm around being productive to a location where the work will have some benefit. ^^

2011-06-24 [Lord Josmar]: Im totally up for it! Just let me know when and where and I will try to help out to the best of my abilities.

2011-06-25 [Artsieladie]: ;_;

2011-06-29 [Stephen]: So, I've set up a forum for interested parties to discuss this. If you're interested, please PM me. :D