Are bare breasts nudity?

2005-10-08 [SerenityBug]: The poll is "whack g-dawg-unit" Heh.. kidding... Though people are naturally going to choose answer D because it is a polite, not too perverted way of saying "show me the titties babeh" Now taken into consideration that there are some real photographers and artists out there that truely do feel that it is an artistic expression, but there are other places for it and it's not fair for them either.... Because if you display it here, you KNOW there is going to be some unartistic asshole just looking at it for the nudity, and not even payin attention to the artistic aspects of it, and if thats the result they want to get, then all the more reason for it not to be allowed.

2005-10-08 [SerenityBug]: If the idea of exposed breasts is kept taboo then less people are going to do it for fear of being caught.

2005-10-08 [small and mighty]: whos miles talkin to???me?!

2005-10-09 [Paapuu]: I did not say I thought girls flashing their tits was okay at all, if that is what you thought!. Oh, yes, and I am a woman, and I chose answer D, [SerenityBug]..so in essence, no, answer D is not a polite way of saying show me the tits because I am perfectly sure that other women have chosen that answer to. Not to offend of couse, but I am not a lesbian, just a woman who knows about art. And as for the quote, "assholes" looking at a picture of a womans artist nudity for a whole other reason then the appreciation for the art, then that is that persons fault, and not the artists...

2005-10-09 [Paapuu]: and if that does occure I really do not think that it should be considered that the artist intended their artr to cause such a sensation. If unmature people think otherwise then what else should you have us do? Control their minds? Hehe. People think other things to when they see a sexy womans face. We can not change the thoughts of people. But like I said before, if someone does take the allowance of artistic breast and turn it into their will to place porn on their page, then bann them...Makre it known that the exposer shall be for art and should be OBVIOUSLY for art only and if otherwise is seen or shown it shall end in a ban...

2005-10-09 [A lost desire]: I WANT TO SEE LOTS OF BOOBIES!!!!!!!

2005-10-09 [Kitsune Arashi]: People are trying to have a serious conversation... and then someone has to say something as stupid as that. I would say that you might want to think before speaking, but I think the idea of thinking is too far above you in any case.

2005-10-09 [Left_Side#11]: forget that last comment........

2005-10-09 [Kitsune Arashi]: Or either has a sensible head on their shoulders that doesn't have to think about sex constantly.

2005-10-09 [UglyCasanova]: Why is nudity so offensive? JESUS WALKED AROUND NAKED.

2005-10-09 [Laila Jane]: This ceoming from someone who supports abortion..WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TOO?!!?

2005-10-09 [Left_Side#11]: No, but seriously though,true that jesus walked around naked but........they didnt have all those laws about public nudity,but of course this is a website and people 'choose' to be here.So if you made a warning at the front of the page about it I think that would be ok....

2005-10-09 [Kirikale]: Where in the bible does it say that Jesus walked around naked? Most people wore robes at that time. Criminals were stripped naked and beaten or crucified naked to further their humiliation. I have never seen anything in the bible that states that Jesus walked around naked. Oh, and, to get back to the actual point of this convo, I think that artistic nudity should be allowed, not random "look at my titties" nudity.

2005-10-09 [Left_Side#11]: that kinda random 'look at my titties' kinda stuff is exactly why they have to dispute this but thats only my opinion

2005-10-09 [small and mighty]: lmao i agree exactly with Kirikale and Left_Side#11

2005-10-09 [Static Flicker]: ELFTOWN, NOW THE SOFT PORN SITE! (ELFTOWN IS GOING TO CRAP REALLY FAST)

2005-10-09 [Afalahs]: A fully dressed person might as well be porographic. It's not the nudity itself, it's the context.

2005-10-09 [SerenityBug]: I seriously thought about choosing answer D too I didn't mean in any way at all that all the horrible perverts of elftown were going to pick answer D... But you know once you display breats all the idiots are going to make stupid remarks on it, and it will just be a big mistake.. You might get a few worth while comments and critisism, but it's rare. I draw artistic nudity all the time as body and form study. I'de prefer to put that stuff up on deviantart.. The people there are older more experienced on average. I have a hard time even thinking elftown was meant for artists anymore, after all the disgusting comments I've gotten from horny little preteens.

2005-10-09 [Winter_Alone]: I don't know what to think of Elftown anymore... It seems like artistic nudity should be ok, but then people also have a hard time defining 'artistic' nudity as well.

2005-10-09 [Kitsune Arashi]: That's because we now have a million horny fourteen year olds on her now. I just came a across someone of fourteen with the mood of 'I'm so horny'. You're fourteen, things like that shouldn't even come up yet. Elftown used to be a place for artists and writers, now we have to move the writers to writers co and most of the people on there aren't very friendly. But here if you say something that could be taken more than one way, everyone freeks out. It's just like art with naked men and women in it. It's not that someone is looking for a way to show off their naked body, it's to show the beauty of the human anatomy. Normaly there would be nothing wrong with that.

2005-10-09 [SerenityBug]: The saddest thing is there's nothing anyone can do about it anymore.

2005-10-09 [Winter_Alone]: right, but if you allow breasts on elftown then naturaly the pervs are going to do something stupid with that. My opinion is set up an age limit for elftown, cut anything but artistic nudity and ban the people who randomly come up to people asking if they want to cyber.

2005-10-09 [SerenityBug]: I like that idea.

2005-10-09 [Kitsune Arashi]: I understand that, but an age limit doesn't seem like a good idea. What if a really good artist or writer is under the age limit? Perhaps they should do more of what is done on elfwood, so it's more complicated and you can't simply join.

2005-10-10 [Chris-S]: I think maybe if he cannot agree wholly on the matter, then I think a compromise may be a good idea. I think breasts should be allowed, but perhaps the top half should be allowed, stopping at the nipple, or showing the breast and covering the nipple somehow. I have no personal problem with artistic nudity, but I just wanted to post a compromise. Alternatively, pay more attention to the warnings on top of the room

2005-10-10 [Kitsune Arashi]: Honestly, what does covering the nipple actually do, other than cause more of a focal point. I find that rather pointless

2005-10-10 [†cross your heart†]: Actually, the entire human body is artistic, no matter what part of it is showing. If all you see when you look at someone is male or female, gentitals, and whatnot you're an idiot. Life is artistic and if you don't see it that way then too bad for you. I just think this should be on the moral side, no sexual inuendo in the picture unless in good taste.

2005-10-10 [OMERTA]: I agree with you on that.

2005-10-10 [Paapuu]: you know what I think? I think that the artistic nudity should be placed on a wiki page with a disclaimer, you know? So in that way, the nudity is not the first thing visitors see and it being on a wiki it will lessen the perverted comments that [SerenityBug] is paranoid about. Hehe. What do you all think. Artists show case of photographer breast on a wiki and not in house.

2005-10-10 [Paapuu]: That way it is not the first thing that visitors see...AND...it makes everyone happy because they can still come to Elftown wihtout being offended...AND, they don't HAVE to go to the wiki page and if they do it's their own fault...not the owners...It will be THEIR choice to go to the wiki...Tah Dah...I think I solved it. Yes?

2005-10-10 [Paapuu]: I think that [Winter_Alone] has something there as well...When "artistic nudity" is established...I think that the gaurds should place down a sentence of definition of artistic nudity and if anyone disobyes it they can use that definition to show them why they are wrong. 

2005-10-10 [Paapuu]: Of course, this will take some research to make sure the definition does not have any loop holes.

2005-10-10 [Paapuu]: I like [ Kitsune Arashi]'s idea...I think that everyone who wants to join elftown should send in a peice of art of writing and then Hedda should analyse iut to see if the idividual is indeed a true artist and not just someone from MySpace.com trying to find a boyfriend.

2005-10-10 [Kitsune Arashi]: Thank you, I'm glad someone agrees with me. I mean, this was made for people like that.

2005-10-10 [NiceGuy213]: lol. that is so true.

2005-10-10 [Aidan Ryuko]: I like kitsune's idea as well, but.. we have to respect mayor wishes as well.. christians, young people, people that just grow up being immature.. if they can't deal with bare boobs then there should be things happening for that, that group can still be artistic so sending them away would be unfair, BUT so would restricting the BIG group that is ok with it, now my idea is.. if they can display and hide messages depending on you being a member of it, or replied with flirt button on or whatever.. that they could give us an option of putting artistic nudity on and off.. so we can see or not see those bare breasts.. itd be our own choice, if we cant handle it.. off you go, if we can.. on you go

2005-10-10 [Skydancer]: That is all very fine, but there are at least two problems that I see with the whole concept of restrictions. One is that many if not most of those that are making complaints about nudity are on an agenda to force their opinions and viewpoints down everyone's throat, they are not just happening on a bit of nude art and being shocked, but they are purposely going page by page through looking for it.

2005-10-10 [Skydancer]: The second problem is the apparently large group of users that are here only to look for nudity or to participate in mostly immature and inexperienced online sexual contact and all they want to do is make elftown a huge playground for their own undeveloped and hormone raging sex games. Which makes everyone that puts any kind of nudity, be it artistic, naturist, nudist or otherwise, directly in the crosshairs of their abuse and disrespect.

2005-10-10 [REDNECK COWGIRL]: Breasts have been exposed in art before, so why should we change it now? Breasts do not cause any problems, and if that's the way people want to express themselves then they should be able to do it.

2005-10-10 [horny bitch 14]: fuck dat 1

2005-10-10 [Kitsune Arashi]: See, this exactly what I was saying. Horny fourteen year olds who shouldn't even be considering such things yet.

2005-10-10 [small and mighty]: Artistic nudity,yes,is fine but if some girl is just showing off her breasts by holding up her shirt and smiling for the camera..it should be taken off.i recently found some old pictures when doing a search of Marilyn Monroe in her Playboy years.THAT is artistic nudity..not the ones theyve got now.Anyway,i draw nudity myself but for the artistic part not the sexual.maybe some people think porn is an art form.its not,it can be educational,but actually its kind of tasteless,a bunch of exaggerated,unfeeling(emotionally not physically XDheh)sex.thats basically what girls are offering by just showing off their breasts.If they wanna be artistic with it.fine,just dont show the for the hell of it

2005-10-10 [small and mighty]: A very good point Skydancer....very good point indeed.

2005-10-10 [small and mighty]: after all its rather annoying to go to a site for artists and what not and see girls showing off like theyrre on 'Girls Gone Wild'

2005-10-10 [Mr. Gentleman]: ....Why is this conversation happening if the nude pictures have already started being deleted?

2005-10-10 [18SnowFlake18]: i think breast are grate and should be looked at

2005-10-10 [Son Goku]: maybe so (to the comment above) but in other places....

2005-10-10 [Kitsune Arashi]: To [Mr. Gentleman], it is because some who have had there art taken or some who are more mature than others, feel the need to make it right.

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: Maybe the mayor is deleting to for a prolong amount of time till the issue can be settled. Think about it, untill the issue if settled we will still have individuals buggign Hedda about them...so he takes them off and then, if the vote passes that breast should be allowed he shall place them back on...of course, the artistis ones...not the "I'm horny look at my breast" ones. And if you picture has happened to be taken off then I suggest you be patient. Of course, if you are one of the "flashy" ones...then you might as well deal with the fact that your picture is not going back up for the sake of maturity. 

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: See, the reason we are having this conversation is because if we do not act, who will? But not only that...we are not trying to change peoples minds, we our just, in a sutle way expressing our opinions on the matter. We are not shuving them down anyones throats...not DEMANDING anything...just being expressive...that is how a community works, am I right? The community gets together and discusses matters such as these. That, [Mr. Gentleman] is why we are having this conversation. 

2005-10-11 [PinkPixie]: I think bare breasts are fine. Like Coon bob said, they've been exposed in art for years, why should it matter now? Many famous artist have had bare breasts exposed in much of their art work.

2005-10-11 [Kitsune Arashi]: Yes, but I don't think this has much to do with the artists I think it's more of the maturity level of those looking at it. That and also the fact that some don't want to see it at all because it's 'indecent exposure'.

2005-10-11 [Demonic Dead Angel Of Life]: well if its the people looking at it that have the problem then they can just not look at it?

2005-10-11 [SerenityBug]: What is it with little horny kids' infatuation with two lumps of fat anyway?

2005-10-11 [Aidan Ryuko]: this community is like a museum with free access.. even though it's pretty much meant and started out as a community for people that like art/literature, it slowly started to get a wider crowd.. in musea you also see mostly maturer people, if you let everyone enter just like that you'd get problems there too.. and people complaining they get exposed to nudity or whatever.. as kitsune already said.. making it harder to become a member might make the site more pointed to the right kind of crowd again since you need to have a certain dedication instead of just filling in a page with info. why is this community treated like a normal community, it isn't anything like it.. it's much more then that

2005-10-11 [SerenityBug]: As per what you said up thurr, not all christians are anal, if you have something personal against them, thats fine. But no need to advertise it. other then that though I agree with you 100% :P

2005-10-11 [Forgotten Shadows]: Something like a mature safey mode like Google has on there searches, correct Aidan Ryuko? I think that, that would be a great idea.

2005-10-11 [Forgotten Shadows]: But the coding for that would be hard to write I would believe. But I guess it woudln't be that rediculas if you had a "mature content" button when uploading a picture...and just toggle that off and on. 

2005-10-11 [matthew wilson]: All I can say is that I love breasts.

2005-10-11 [Shaven]: it is part of the human body, a thing that is beautiful, women are privilged to have then and they have every rite to show whom ever they want, much like freedom of speech. if a women is comfortable enuf to put them up there then there shud be no issue...........u do not wish to see them....then leave the profile

2005-10-11 [Galain]: I think [Shaven] makes a valid point, if 'interestingly' articulated at times. Fundamentally, it has to be a persons choice. No one is forced to look at profiles, now are they? Granted, people may encounter the profiles by chance - so, perhaps we could simply colour-code the display names of members who's presentations may contain nudity, so that they appear in a distinguishable colour. Such as orange. Just a thought; easy to code, and minimally invasive of people's rights.

2005-10-11 [Nicolaia Carpathian Queen]: That is a great idea Galain. They are there....but I don't think it's tasteful to have nude pics everywhere. I think that artwork may be ok...but nude pics?? Isn't that crossing the porn line? I think so. People just have to be mature with artwork.

2005-10-11 [Inuzuka Kiba]: Yeah,I agree.People with "Safe Zone" badges even put them up.What the Hell is a safe badge anyway?I went to the wiki and dident get much of an ancer><

2005-10-11 [small and mighty]: I think people have made good points but taking things the wrong way i think that people are more uspest at the 'look at my boobs' people than the artistic 'look at this awesome art form' people.want to see what artistically nude is?goo look at the playboys with marylin monroe in them...at her pics..those are gorgeous.play boys theyve got now are quite tasteless and leave nothing to the imagination....yeah im a girl and yeah i like lookin at older playboys and porn and nude hotos,but not in a site where children can come frolic amongst the pages easily......

2005-10-11 [small and mighty]: depends on the persons photo.carpathian_queen.if its somone draped or just being a 'modest nude' then no,its not crossing the porn lines.if its a girl(or guy)being spreadeagled witha 'comehither'look then yea I think it could be crossing that line.

2005-10-11 [Aidan Ryuko]: what shadow said is good idea, the coding.. I think they can copy most of the scripting from other things you can turn on and off (like the flirt button and access to wiki pages) so with a bit of adjusting it should be possible pretty easily.

2005-10-11 [small and mighty]: what about people who are crap with html and coding and such like myself....lol

2005-10-11 [weasel6]: 1..2..3

2005-10-11 [weasel6]: boobs

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: I have a solution for those who do not wish to look at the bare breast...CLose your eyes. It's simple. But really, I think that most of the individuals here are adults and if adult can't take bare breasts then so be it. The poll is obviously going to be for breasts, so I think that what I said before should help out withthose who do not wish to see breasts. It might be considered "indecent exposure" in the real world...But when one steps into Elftown they are essentially stepping out of the REAL WORLD and into a fantasy world. So I do not think that REAL WORLD laws area legitimit arrgument in ELFTOWN, maybe, again on MySpace...but not of ELftown. 

2005-10-11 [Skydancer]: Just a small comment. Elftown resides on a real server, operated by a real person in a real country and the laws of Sweden where it resides certainly do apply here. Also, for users at least in the US, there are laws that do apply to the internet and what you download. As just one example but a very important one, the very act of having child pornography on your computer in the US is a felony and will get you imprisoned. There are many other laws that can and often do apply depending on the country you live in, regardless of the fact that the actual server is in Sweden also.

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: And look, nude pics doe sNOT cross the porn line, [Nicolaia Carpathian Queen]...!!!! Birth of Venus is not PORN nor does it in ANYWAY! cross the "porn line" and I'm astonished that someone would think that nude pics were PORN! Absolutely astonished. You, personally are over exaggerating the point...Like a president who uses children to drive his campaign. 

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]:  This is the bith of venus...Does that look like porn to you!?!?!

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: And if it does, then leave because you do not know true art and you have OBVIOUSLY got some problems...ANO PROBLEMS. I'm sorry I am yelling, but that really makes me mad that someone would say that bare nudity was porn. See porn is exaggerated sexual intercourse...And even if the picture involved two people, naked, and kissing...It's still not porn unless there was some EXTREMELY VISIBLE sign of intercourse....Thank YOu. And I am sorry again, but I am a little disturbed by that comment. Please excuse me. Thank you again.

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: THIS THIS and THIS are images from The Garden of Earthly Delights...These can be considered the "border line of porn"...Do you see the difference?

2005-10-11 [weasel6]: boobs/brests are not porn but pussy is  if you had everythang on but the ziper & panys was gone out of your pants/panys werent ther .../it would still be porn!

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: Well [Skydancer], I'm sorry...I( did consider that, of course. I apologize. I know that...That was a bad argument that I made about Elftown not being real, or something...But this last one is a good exapmle of the difference between "Border line porn" and "ART"....Do you not see it? THe beauty and grace of The Birth of Venus, against the chaos and sexual contact and then some (hehe) with in The Garden of Earthly Delights? This is why I was offended by the comment that Nudity in it's self...that is al least how I read it...was "border line porn"...I just could not understand that. So I felt a justification to show these pictures. If I have done something elegal by Elftown law...

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: please, I apologize and feel free to remove them

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: [weasel6], could you say that last statement again? I don't understand? Are you saying is the female vaginal was exposed, it would be porn? What about the male penis, there is a man in elftown with his male penis exposed...I don't want to sound like I am calling you sexist, but wouldn't it be unfair to let a man expose himself yet not a woman when there is more to be seen on the man then the woman? I mean, art with male genitilia is everywhere but no one seems to care...Yet, when a woman has her chest in her ART it is something to go against? I do not understand this system, [Weasle6]...Again, I'm just asking what you were trying to say because I did not understand. Thank you.

2005-10-11 [Skydancer]: You are not in the least bothering me [Paapuu], I just felt it was important to point out that we do have to be aware of and and obey the applicable laws of our respective countries. :)

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: I think in my personal opinion, as long as the art showed respectful elegance and grace, such as Birth of Venus, it should be allowed. 

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: Oh, of course. :)

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: But what do you think, really? Do you, Skydance, see the differenc?

2005-10-11 [Skydancer]: Oh totally my friend. After all, I am the Keeper of a major nude arts resource. I am very much aware and support the figure in art, and as art.

2005-10-11 [Paapuu]: See, if what you have above your page should be the norm with anyone with artistic nudity...I think it would work better that way.

2005-10-11 [Skydancer]: You do know that we cannot see the notices that are on our own houses don't you? I can see anyone elses, but not the one on my own house, I just pretty much forget it is even there. :D

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: Oh, Wow...Really? Wow...I thought that you could...Oh well! ;D...

2005-10-12 [Galain]: Clearly then, the laws of Sweden must be obeyed, in terms of the age of people wishing to post nude pictures of themselves. However, artistic nudity, it would seem we are agreed, is another kettle of fish entirely. Where do we draw the line between 'The Birth of Venus' and full-frontal anime-style nudity? I still maintain the distinction ought to come at people's discretion. Simply because someone has created a piece of art others find offensive, that isn't grounds to ban such a piece completely. We must remember that many great artists were denouced as heretics for painting such 'graphic images'. The colour-coding system allows personal distinction to be the defining factor, within the law.

2005-10-12 [Aidan Ryuko]: bodyparts are not porn >.> but they do need some discretion, I wouldn't want to see someone displaying their penis or vagina on this site..it's a fantasy site, HOWEVER, if it's fully bodypainted you might see the beauty of it. I don't think we can get a line by discussing on here, maybe with a little group who is mature enough. I think the most clear image I can give from crossing my line is girls displaying their lust/desire, photo's of girls holding their shirt up, photo's showing how horny they are, hentai.. without that lust.. even if you have a picture of someone laying tummy-wise on bed without clothes on, almost everything before that line is just simply artistic to me.

2005-10-12 [Galain]: I can see where you're coming from [Aidan Ryuko], so please don't take this the wrong way; we are still, largely, considering what we want. As idealistic as this may sound, couldn't we simply accept that people should be allowed to post what they want, within their private pages, with appropriate warnings. Provided it isn't forced (e.g. sent in messages) upon those who don't want to see such material (and I don't want to see 'horny 14-year olds any more than you do), I see no harm in people (within the laws of Sweden, of course) posting what they wish. This is, after all, a community that prides itself on it's egalitarian nature.

2005-10-12 [Aidan Ryuko]: not to forget that this community is designed as a fantasy community related to the elfwood site (only fantasy art/literature allowed) the community has a very mature basis.. but it's spread out now.. so there is a question I have, should we adjust or should we not adjust the way we handle this site, parents behave way different with friends then they do with their kids, if there are a lot of younger people.. what do we have to adjust, do we really have to lose the whole right of seeing artistic nudity? why? even kids can see boobies in a museum..

2005-10-12 [Nicolaia Carpathian Queen]: Artistic nudity is different than Porn...I'm sorry if I didn't clarify. Pornography is graphic and envoking of emotions that relate to sex. Artistic nudity is subtle, it may be there but you have to consentrate in order to 'get off' by The Birth of Venus. The birth of Venus is a beautiful and there is nothing wrong with it. But think about this, there are 13 year olds on this site and probably younger they just change their age. I wouldn't want my little brother and sister to see graphic nudity, they are not mature enough! Kids that young are not mature enought to understand and take the art seriously. Try to see things from a responsible parents point of view.

2005-10-12 [Nicolaia Carpathian Queen]: I've had to raise my brother and sister for the last 5 years and I think about protecting them.

2005-10-12 [zip]: "I wouldn't want my little brother and sister to see graphic nudity, they are not mature enough! Kids that young are not mature enought to understand and take the art seriously." "I've had to raise my brother and sister for the last 5 years and I think about protecting them."  Cue laugh track.

2005-10-12 [Aidan Ryuko]: I think this site wasn't build for that group of people carpathian, as you said..kids that young are not mature enough to understand and take the art seriously, this site is a fantasy community and art and literature are a big part of that, so your brother and sister would be better off at a site with people their age and their interests, there have to be places where we can still admire art even if it contains nudity, that is an opinion of mine.. we can adjust but erasing isn't solving the real problem.

2005-10-12 [Aidan Ryuko]: whats funny about that? I wouldnt want my little sis to see porn on a site she and I come on as well

2005-10-12 [Inuzuka Kiba]: Exactly.There are 8 year old kids on here,you know.

2005-10-12 [zip]: 8 year old kids can handle nudity, and the ones who can't shouldn't be using the internet without supervision anyway.

2005-10-12 [Kitsune Arashi]: That and elftown wasn't made for eight-year-old children. It was made for artists and writers. And if an eight year old is either of those [zip] is right, they should be bothered by it

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: [Nicolaia Carpathian Queen], then do not allow your younger brother or sister to come to this site. Do not hold sectrets from them about nudity, sexcuality...This is how I think parents should treat such situations. If your child asks, "mom, what are breast?" then tell them. If they are old enough to ask then they are old enough to know. The only way to keep them safe FROM things you don't want them to know or see is to tell them WHAT those things are. 

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: Not only this, but if you were a responsible parent...why is your child looking at porn. And did not not just clearify that nudity is different from porn? If your child can not take the sight of a naked woman, such as Venus, then they have no right being here because it is parents who allow those children to misinterpretate much less allow those children on mature sites for artists and writers that causes these types of sites to have, and I'll make a list: Perverts who asked to cyber, imature emo freaks who always have to complain "cause mommy said so" and overly control freak individual children on this site. 

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: Do you see why children like you brother and sister, who can't handle nudity should not be on this site? Nudity is a very large part of art. I go to an art college and guess what we do every other saturday of the first and last weeks of every month? We go to live model drawing lessons where a naked person, be it male or female. (THey are TOTALLY NAKED) And these individuals do ALL TYPES of poses and we draw them for three hours. Like I said, nudity, nude poses, nude models, NUDE</b, with no visible<b>sexual intercourse to be seen is a very large part of art and there is nothing any one can do about it. I'm sorry.  

2005-10-12 [zip]: A child shouldn't have to ask "mommy, what are breasts"....

2005-10-12 [Kitsune Arashi]: Too true. And those that do, there parents probably don't even let them near the internet. So those should be a problem. And those others, if they come to this site, the should know what to expect. Not only with the art, but with all these fourteen-year-old freaks, saying they're horny and love sex. Why are children like that even worrying about that yet! You're fourteen years old!

2005-10-12 [small and mighty]: NUDE</b, with no visiblesexual intercourse to be seen is a very large part of art..i disagree with that in playboy pics usually there isnt any form of sexz weather self pleasure or other wise yet its considered porn not art.....and zip. some children grow up rather sheltered and do have to ask what are breasts at that ageMissing: </b>

2005-10-12 [small and mighty]: 14 year olds are worrying about that because they are exposed to it at a much younger age.than what they used to be.i knew what sex was when i was 4 i knew it was for mommy and daddy or 2 people who love each other very much to 'make babies' and i didnt think of having sex till i turned 16..the it was 'waiting till im married but i know what goes on'children are now learning from (internet)porn and much easier access to porn i think this is the cause of more stds going around is stupid little 14,15 year olds not waiting till later or just being stupid and not using condoms.because of learning about it through porn instead of parents saying.sex is what makes babies....

2005-10-12 [Kitsune Arashi]: Whether they are or not, it's wrong.

2005-10-12 [zip]: 14 year old freaks? I actually think it's quite natural for a 14 year old to be horny since their hormones are peaking.

2005-10-12 [Kitsune Arashi]: I wasn't like that at fourteen... maybe it's just me and my friends then, because none of us like that, especially when they're comming to our pages and asking to cyber when most of my friends are either four or five years older than them.

2005-10-12 [zip]: Hm.. well, I like older women too, but I don't harrass them :P   I wasn't condoning that behavior, simply saying that it's normal for them to be horny.

2005-10-12 [Okami]: :/ i was a perv. at third grade. . . i guess that does make me a freak. but just cause i'm pervy doesn't mean i don't know how to act 

2005-10-12 [Okami]: i definately think drawn/painted/etc porn is art in most cases. it's quite a good challenge for drawing poses, experimenting with lighting, anatomy, etc. . . it can be given crit on such things, and can help an artist to improve. and it's fun, to boot. thus i think it can be art (again, in most cases. it's obviously abused, as well)

2005-10-12 [Okami]: but given the situation. . . i don't think we should be consentrating on wether a piece is 'porn' or 'art' i think instead, we should give them ratings. ye know. . . P, PG, PG13, R, NC17, etc. . . this way there's no 'but nudity is art!' 'but nudity is porn!' fighting. . . just say flat out, 'ET is a G-PG13 site." or something like that. . .?? there're plenty of places to post PG13-NC17 arts (trust me i know :3) but they're not ET, and people should know that or something.

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: Well, if you want to consider it porn..that's oaky with me. Pornagraphy is essentially sexual photos. Now, you should all google the book images from the book "Suicide Girls"...Those are picture of art...not porn yet every single individual in that book is nude. It might look "pornographic"...but it is not. And if you perceive it as "pornographic" then essentially that does not matter...because in reality it is not. So perceive as you will...

2005-10-12 [zip]: Or simply have house ratings, everyone gets checkboxes, "This house contains:" whatever, and then ET automatically generates a rating with a list of what is in the house.

2005-10-12 [Okami]: yeah, and filters to block out houses that are rated something ye don't like. .. ?? and block images for younger users if they visit a R-NC17 house. . .?? :/ i dunno how hard that would be for coding, though. . *knows nothing of the sort*

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: ...This is a nude picture, yet it is art, apparently. This, too is art...but nude.Same for this. This is the kind of art that I do

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: . This, too is art...No matter how it looks. This should qualify as legal here on elftown. Again, sorry if these picture are illegal, gaurds...Take them off if you wish to. I just wanted to show some people something other then Birth of Venus. Modern day nude art. 

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]:  This is art, too. It is also nicely done. See, now if you look at these and get a hard on then you should leave, or at least calm yourself and realize that these are to be appreciated for their artistic value, not the curves or breast size. And even though some people might see it like that then that is their problem. And if they harras the artist or owner about it...well, my friends.. THAT IS WHAT THE BLOCK BUTTON IS FOR!

2005-10-12 [zip]: It is not ET's job to censor content for younger members, or to decide who is mature enough to view what.

2005-10-12 [Okami]: again, i think ratings would be a lot easier than trying to decide 'porn' from 'art', as that's extremely debatable and opinionated :/

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: Do you see now! So, I ask you all...what is...EXACTLY all of your issues with this art. I don't think "my brother and sister will see it and their not mature", or "I'm christian and women should be modest", or "those offend my eyes" or "I think it would cause perverts to have boners" or anything else between those "argument" will work. Because none of them are relevent to the issue of "Is frontal nudity pornographic or artistic"

2005-10-12 [zip]: Exactly, simply say "This house contains: Exposed Female Breasts(Photographed) Exposed Male Genitalia(Painted)" and let the viewer decide if it's porn to them or not.

2005-10-12 [Paapuu]: Well, it might be opinionate, but I'm not so sure about debatable. People KNOW and like I said about 5 times now, it is VERY easy to see the difference between pron and art or wether a woman just wants to show her tits or wants to show beauty is nudity, like the one with the girl on the floor and the one with the girl cuvering her chest. 

2005-10-12 [Okami]: *wriggles and paints self with the ratings idea and dances in front of Paapuu, laughing like an idiot*

2005-10-12 [Okami]: sorry :p

2005-10-12 [small and mighty]: depends..if the pic looks like it belongs in playboy(legs spreadeagled and a 'comehither' look on the face)the face then yeah..its porn.if its guy with ahardon holding himself.yeah it should be porn.but a nude standin.sitting,reclining without being spreadeagled and looking like in the pics put up here then its not porn...

2005-10-12 [Son Goku]: i think the rating thing's a very good idea. In fact, each member should be allowed to put up his own rating where we edit our presentations! because seriously, some people are offended by these things... and well, their views should be respected.... As for what is art, and what is not... seriously, everyone can tell the difference. there's no point in arguing. unless you're some mountain person who's never heard what "sex" is before... then you know what's not art. like [small and mighty] says.

2005-10-12 [Okami]: yes ^^

2005-10-13 [Paul Doyle]: Wow, talk about "much ado about nothing". This is even more unintentionally hilarious than the flirt help thread. *sits back and watches*

2005-10-13 [Paapuu]: WTF? Hhehe. Precisely, but some people who have been arguing here act like sex is something astonishing and should be kept a deep dark secret. But the rating thing is good but I don't think that the individual with the page should make their own rating due to the fact that some people don't know how much they should rate it. SO! You know, I also think the ratings thing will more so allow people to put nasties on their page. Or at least when they are caught with the nasty picture they'll use the excuse "Well, they saw my ratings were M17, so they should niot have looked at it"...YOu know what I mean. But the ratings ortoggle thingy is a good idea...

2005-10-13 [Paapuu]: just the ratings should be done by the garuds of hedda himself.

2005-10-13 [Paapuu]: YOur silly Paul. We're having fun....join us.

2005-10-13 [Paul Doyle]: I can't help but think of this as being like an Elftown version of a Seinfeld episode. Boobies and mammaries and teats, oh my!

2005-10-13 [Paul Doyle]: I have done a few crappy male figure references, and (this keeps on getting delayed!) my wife is going to take a handful of (hopefully) decent-quality nude figure references of me, with not an iota of sexuality hinted at, uploaded to the proper wiki where prying unwelcome eyes are forbidden by forum-protection. Nudity is . . . well, why beat a dead horse? . . . natural, for adults. Children, on the other hand, should never be portrayed as nude on Elftown, for their own safety. Parents who deliberately display their bare-ass kids for all of Elftown are being extremely irresponsible, and are just asking for trouble since they are clearly seeking attention, and not looking out for

2005-10-13 [Paul Doyle]: their children's best interests, which is to protect them from real-life stalkers and pedophiles to the best of their ability. That being said, people who get shocked about ADULT nudity, namely breasts, really ought to wonder why they are on Elftown in the first place. After all, how can an artist not draw the human body without proper references? I currently can't draw the human form for anything; hopefully this will change with the figure-reference studies I intend to utilize in the coming months. And I also sense there are some holier-than-thou people who are on Elftown simply because they want to earn brownie points with their religious fundamentalist pastors.

2005-10-13 [Paul Doyle]: They express seemingly exaggerated shock and dismay at the hint of BREASTS! Well, to these people, I say: get off Elftown. Really. You are the sort of people who threw drapery on the nude statues in the US Senate building, which is ridiculous, and also an ironic waste of taxpayer money (the draperies). The rest of you? If you can't tolerate artistic nudity, then go to Elf12. If you get overly aroused at the sight of breasts, go to Elfpack. If you want to spank the monkey, go to http://fake.swedma.com/ In this way, you can help Make Elftown Nicer Thanks ^_^

2005-10-13 [Whim]: Regardless of how you view breasts, exposing them is still nudity no matter how you look at it. It may not be "naughty" nudity, but it's still nudity. I don't care how artistic it is. It's still nudity even if it's pompous nudity. So you either allow all breasts or no breasts at all. That's what I think.

2005-10-13 [zip]: Paapuu: Yes having the guards do it would make it more foolproof, but they don't have time to rate every single house, and what reason would anyone have for lying on their ratings checksheet?

2005-10-13 [Kitsune Arashi]: To Whim: I know it's all nudity, that is very true. Regardless, I return to the statement I have mentioned so many times before: This is a place for artits and writers, who, one, would not be putting pron up, and two, realize that the human anatomy is beautiful. If et, was still as it was two years ago, when I first joined, this wouldn't be a problem. People who enjoy showing their art work shouldn't have to suffer for those who came her under false pretenses.

2005-10-13 [Aidan Ryuko]: a better way of rating would giving yourself a rate BEFORE the people become a member, rate 1 can only put safe stuff on their house and see safe stuff, rate 2 can see some violence and rate 3 nudity (for example) the higher the rate the more you can see of eachothers houses, anyone who doesnt like nudity gets a lower rate.. voila.. they wont see nudity.

2005-10-13 [Kitsune Arashi]: That is a really good idea! I hope they do come up with something like that! That would be perfect! I wish we could do something like that so we wouldn't end up with these 'let's cyber' messages. I'm getting sick and tired of those

2005-10-13 [Whim]: I know your intentions and I know that you think that artistic nudity should be judged seperately from pornographic nudity, but I'm sorry to say that there is no such thing as tasteful nudity. All nudity is the same. The body is beautiful, yes, and I agree that nudity should be allowed, but I also believe that you can't block out one type of nudity without blocking out ALL types of nudity. There is no line because all nudity is the same. A pervert will still get aroused by artistic nudity. A mother will still shield her children's eyes from artistic nudity. A prude will still complain about artistic nudity. Why? Because there's no difference.

2005-10-13 [Whim]: Artists only want there to be a difference because they want their freedom. Well, you can have your freedom, but to be fair, if you have your freedom, so should every other member. Simply put, if you want to block out all but artistic nudity, then everyone except artists should be banned from ET. And whether you like it or not, there are some sick perverted artists out there, so you'll probably still have pornographic nudity.

2005-10-13 [Kitsune Arashi]: I have to disagree. There is such a thing as 'tasteful nudity' as you put it. I do belive that [Paapuu] showed some. And since et was made for artists and writers to begin with, I see nothing wrong with ridding this site of all the perverts that can't take art for what it is. I do know that some artists can be sick, but there is something more behind it than just a perversion. There is a very thick line separating porn from art, whether you believe it or not. I know I certainly can't call the painting of the birth of Aphrodite porn, it is tasteful and very beautiful, it is one of my favorite paintings. Yes it is all nudity, but there are different kinds and different ways to portray

2005-10-13 [Kitsune Arashi]: and different ways to portray it, without it being turned into porn.

2005-10-13 [Aidan Ryuko]: all I have to say whim, try and tell musea to put an age restrict because they are filled with nudity displayed in art.

2005-10-13 [zip]: Musea?

2005-10-13 [Aidan Ryuko]: the multiple word for a museum?

2005-10-13 [Whim]: There are different ways to portray nudity, yes, but no matter how you portray it, it's still nudity. And until you can prove to me that porn can't be considered art, you're not gonna convince me. And those artists who are sick and depraved don't always make art to be beautiful or meaningful. You'd be surprised how many artists do what they do just to be sick or perverted or for the mere shock value. Ironically, the rest of the artistic community regards these artists as geniuses and begins to BS a "deeper meaning" behind "Man Banging a Cow in Monotone."

2005-10-13 [Whim]: And I'm not saying that any nudity should be age restricted. I'm simply saying that there should be consistancy when applying rules. In our society, a museum SHOULD have an age restriction on some art because some art does contain nudity and as a general rule in our society, nudity is unnacceptable. Artists get a free pass, however, because everyone assumes the artist is being creative and thought provoking. So I believe, as I said before, that you should allow ALL breasts or NO breasts at all.

2005-10-13 [zip]: I agree with you, if female breasts are disallowed, then ban exposed male breasts too, one must be fair.

2005-10-13 [Whim]: hehe...you're probably being sarcastic, but I agree with that. It makes no sense to me why female breasts are so wrong in our society, but male breasts are no big deal. There's a good bit of hypocrisy in our society's system of ethics.

2005-10-13 [zip]: I wasn't being sarcastic, if they ban female breasts I will start reporting men who have their shirts off.

2005-10-13 [Kitsune Arashi]: Thank you! That's so stupid. I hate the fact that guys can walk around without shirts on and women have to cover ours up. What's the difference? All ours do is produce milk, and women lactating show their breasts frequently for these babies.

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: Well thank you, [Whim]. But some people wqant to place their breast in their art...or breast in particular...So that is why we are doing this...to see what one will consider artistic exposer and what is not. 

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: This is a blured picture as to...IN AN ATTEMPT...not offend anyone TOO MUCH. But I wanted to show whim what artistic porn looked like. 

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: You can't see mkuch...Bad attemp. But really, Pornographic photos or art. oh HEY! So any of you remember [Skull head]? All of the gaurds do, I'm sure. Calico cat does, I'm sure. He drew pornography. He had one picture of Jasmine, from disney naked with a dog collar and chain on...He aslo had a drawing with a girl having sezx with a guy in some Kumasutra fashion. He also had a picture of calico cat being butt humped by a happy man...THAT my friends is what we are now calling "nasty art"

2005-10-14 [Okami]: . . .what is that? it looks like a cow that's been hacked to bits with green blotches. . .?? ._. is there anything human?? *is probably not looking at it right or something* sorry

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: Yes but...in my opinion. opinion mind you, I think that if elftown wants to be FAIR about anything then they should ban male breast as well. NOt trying to be a whiner, just saying that some men...AND YOU CANNOT DENY IT...but some men do have big enough "chests" that they can easily be considered "breasts". And I'm sorry to say that...but it's sssooo true. Believe me...And some people...Like my self do not wish to look at some hairy mans hairy, nasty male boobies. 

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: *cringe*

2005-10-14 [Okami]: haha sorry, that was off-topic. again, i still think we should stop trying to call things either art or porn :/ because if one looks at Y!hosting, a site that focuses on 'porn'. . . ye can't deny that most of the stuff on there are wonderful peices of art. it's all in the preception of the person looking at it.

2005-10-14 [Okami]: *falls over laughing* ye are right. moobs. mmm.

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: But yeah, your right...So why are we having this conversation? Personally, and [Hedda] if you watching, just keep elftown the nice, HUMBLE, MODEST elftown it is. I like Efltown the way it is, don't all of you. And who CARES if someone is STILL complaining about their boobies being taken off the site. Oh, wait...I think it was [Skydancer] who had boobies on his page. Why is his not gone. So I guess that boobies are allowed. Hum...Interesting. Take a look, [Okami]...

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: Okay, well it is off now...but it still says that there will be nudity on his page and to not report him...so I am guessing nudity...be it breast are allowed now as long as a ETSS puts a banner up...right? 

2005-10-14 [Paapuu]: Well, that's awsome...That means I can put my pictures up too...Be ready to be dazzled. I think that [Skydancer]'s page ends this discussion. I think we are all here looking like morons still discussing siomething that has already been settled. Nudity is allowed on elftown...The nude picture I saw had breast...some kind of fairy chick...so I guess breast are okay now. *round of applause*

2005-10-14 [Okami]: they've been ok, as far as i know. *can't stop laughing now*

2005-10-14 [Skydancer]: Skydancer Archives and yes I have had many examples of my art and my photography in my house from time to time.

2005-10-14 [Galain]: As you should, my friend. Let us not forget where we have come from, and where we stand. If you don't like it, don't look at it. Provided it's legal to post it online, do so - if you wish. But certainly, do not assume that your moral standards should be universally applied. People can decide for themselves. If you're worried about the young-uns, perhaps you should consider where education of issues such as this ought to take place - in the home. If parents don't like it - THEIR KIDS SHOULD NOT BE HERE. Personally, I don't see why 14 year olds (to take the example) shouldn't be allowed to see nudity, but it is not my place to make such decisions. It's been a good debate too, so thanks.

2005-10-14 [Paul Doyle]: What's in that last image? Humping cows? o__O

2005-10-14 [Whim]: Paapuu, the actual topic of this wiki is breasts, so that's the type of nudity I was mainly speaking on. I don't agree with it, but in our society, sexual organs and sexual acts are considered much worse than bare breasts of any gender. So, again, I'm not saying that anything shouldn't be allowed, I'm simply saying that you need consistant rules to follow. People are going to continuously break the rules if they are not consistant. So you can't just say that artists can get away with something that horny teenagers can't. These supposedly slutty girls who post their naked breasts can make the argument that modeling is an art and that they are modeling nude or topless.

2005-10-14 [Whim]: I can make ANYTHING look like art. And as for Skullhead, I think he had originally been banned not because he posted pornographic art so much as he was very offensive in the way he did it. You know you can't show a town guard being humped in any way, shape, or form unless they consent. He could have gotten away with such art if he were to crop above the waist, I think.

2005-10-14 [Whim]: Now here's the real test. If I post a sexual picture and it gets removed by the guards, could I take the exact same picture, throw on some sort of paint filter in photoshop to make it look like it's a drawing or painting, and then post it again and get away with it?

2005-10-14 [Hedda]: It depends. If you put clothes or blur ot or what-ever, it's no longer that nude anymore. Hard to make a general rule about it.

2005-10-14 [Whim]: Well, I mean when all the naughty bits are still clearly naughty bits...hehe. Is there really a difference between a photo of a seductive topless woman and a photo-realistic painting of a seductive topless woman?

2005-10-14 [Paul Doyle]: I'm still wondering what the hell that previous photo's supposed to be. Or if it's as relevant to this topic as this similar-looking photo: o___O 

2005-10-15 [Paapuu]: So, ignoring our funny man there...Really, some things are obviously art and some are obviously offensive...that is why I used SkullHead as an example...And yes, I remember he also got banned for the pornographic jasmine as well...But you know, Whim ,you have a good point because I remeber his picture of a girl and guy having sex had censor bars on the genitilia...ut they were still on there.  REALLY, I think that since Hedda is Mayor and his say is pretty much law, if he thinks the picture does not belong on elftown....his elftown...then so be it. And don't complain about it because Elftown is for your enjoyment and you do not work hard to creaste it and update it so...

2005-10-15 [Paapuu]: You know, if I worked and made this web thingy...It seems like something really hard to do...I would be expecting respect from the individuals who utalize what I created FOR FREE. /of course, it's nice top have a debate, but none the less, no matter what we say the gaurds are always going to decide what they like and don't like...so why bother...really.

2005-10-15 [Whim]: oh, I'm aware of who's Elftown this is...hehe. And you're right, ultimately it is Hedda'a decision. But the point I've been trying to make is that when you have very vague rules such as those regarding artistic nudity, the rules are more likely to be broken and people are more likely to protest when they get in trouble for breaking the rules. And I can kind of see where such protests would be coming from because, in my opinion, it is very unfair that one person can get away with it while another person gets warned or banned for what could essentially be considered the same crime.

2005-10-15 [Aidan Ryuko]: maybe we can have people that you show your picture too and they decide if you can put it up or not.. so we don't lose all that art. like a jury or something I guess;) I don't want to miss out on any cool tiger creatures:D - that way the rule is pretty consistant too, only exceptions are allowed;)

2005-10-15 [Paapuu]: Yes, exactley...But what my concern is is that [Skydancer] has...or had nudity on his page...and there is also a warning on his page about his nude pictures. So you are right again, [Whim], arguements would arrise about nudity and who has art and who doesn't. If I recall, is [Skydancer] a gaurd? Because this is another thing that arises...Calico Cats character has visible booby nudity...so is what I'm seeing unfair? It's more of a question, not an accusation. I'm trying to clear things up for myself, really, not cause more problems. But how is it that the gaurds can have breast and nudity on their home pages and not the common people? See, this is where it gets trickey, I think. 

2005-10-15 [Paapuu]: See, the thing is is that a jury would be nice, but I feel that if someone came up to the jury that maybe on of the jury members did not like then they would vote against their art and call it something else. What I am getting at is that I get a feeling that there is inequality here. Because Calico Cat has had her topless character on elftown for as long as I have been here. But yet we are having a debate on whether breast are considered nudity? So, apparently some people have had exposed breast on their site...I'm not too sure about how the pictures looked or who had them or anything, I'm just gaining knowledge from the people who give it to me. 

2005-10-15 [Kim_Lundin]: No, [Skydancer] isn't a guard.

2005-10-15 [Paapuu]: But if a common elftowners "topless art" can be taken off by the gaurds, how is it that the gaurds "topless art" has not been removed. Again, no accusation, just clearification.

2005-10-15 [Paapuu]: Oh, okay, thank you [Kim_Lundin]

2005-10-15 [Aidan Ryuko]: well then take skydancer;) he's a mature man and he knows what is decent and what not.. there are some people who will stay objective about it, if they co-operate with guards you can even get some pretty red text above the houses:) (also if he/she has art but doesnt want cyber.., very important thing to keep in mind)

2005-10-15 [Skydancer]: Just to add in some information. Much of this discussion has come about not because of the nude art that has always been a part of Elftown, but because of the tremendous influx of non artist, and mostly teenage users that have signed up relatively recently and are using their houses as cyber and sexually aggressive, not to even mention immaturely dangerous, exposures of themselves on the net. I actually placed nearly all of my nude art, and photography into locked wikis, the ability to lock which came about because of the massive influx of users looking only for nudity and sexuality, because I got very tired of continuing and totally inappropriate comments and messages from both sides of the

2005-10-15 [Skydancer]: situation. And I still get many many visitors in my visitor list that are not artists, but are kids, browsing only for nude images. I also get quite a few messages from people that never bother to read what Elftown actually is but are here because their friends, or school mates or gang told them about it and they think this place is for teen age cybering.

2005-10-15 [Skydancer]: I have a really large list of blocked users... and I end up having to add new ones every week.

2005-10-15 [Aidan Ryuko]: mmhmm.. but setting up rules isn't fixing that specific problem.. as for artistic nudity, I really hope there is a middle way between banning out and keeping everything, id hate to see my friends anthro drawings go

2005-10-16 [Whim]: the only way to fix the problem would be to create and enforce strict rules reguarding messages, wiki, and house content. Basically, you'd have to turn Elftown into Nazi Germany to keep all the kids out by banning them any time they post suggestive themes in their wikis or houses and ban them any time a member complains about suggestive private messages sent to them. That's a very extreme method that would have about 70% of Elftown banned, but it would work. Other than that, you're stuck with things the way they are. However, as some may be seeing now, Elftown has actually begun to cater to the "Cybering crowd." Rather than getting rid of them, we've begun to embrace them.

2005-10-16 [Whim]: The best example of this embracing that I can think of is the new "flirt" function. It's little things like this that degrade Elftown's image from an artists community to one of those dating communities.

2005-10-16 [Whim]: So, the way I see it, there is one other way to fix the problem. Rather than adding more features that attract horny young teens, add features that attract artists. If you can create an artistic image of Elftown, then more artists will come around and stay around, which will eventually cause the artists-to-child ratio to increase and that will gradually push the idea of cybering and dating out of this site.

2005-10-16 [Aidan Ryuko]: "" you'd have to turn Elftown into Nazi Germany to keep all the kids out" exactly my thought, best thing that works is muting them without them knowing it.. high trees catch a lot of wind, elftown is a big site now.. it'll be very hard to fix that even if we get more artists.

2005-10-16 [zip]: You know.. a lot of the artists on this site ARE the "kids" that you seem so desperate to drive out.. just a thought.

2005-10-16 [Aidan Ryuko]: you have to admit a lot of them are of younger age.. even though there might be a few of 40 or something, there are indeed some artists (and some are very good too) that are still very young, but they are very different qua maturity..

2005-10-16 [Whim]: I use kids as a general word to describe anyone partaking in immature behavior that may not be conisdered suitable for elftown. I apologize to any children that I may have offended.

2005-10-18 [Paapuu]: Really, we ar not tying to drive any children out...We use the word children to describe individuals who are old enough to know when they are action "childish" and yet they still do. We use the word Children not to point exactley at the "children" of the elftown community, but rather we are speaking of the fact that some people are not mature enough to look at artistic nudity and see it for what it is. When we say "children" this is who we are refering to...The Individuals who are not mature. Not "Children" individually. Please, anyone who is young enough to be considered "child", do not take offence. We are proving a point with a metaphor...not a title. 

2005-10-18 [Kim_Lundin]: Heh, when are you concidered not a child? When you're mature physically or when you're mature mentally?

2005-10-18 [Aidan Ryuko]: mentally offcourse kim, maybe for those people who are childish of mind it's physically though;)