2007-05-17 [Estantia]: If the system does get implemented on a large scale in RPG realm we can find out what causes problems and sort them out, in effect having a 'trial run'. It may end up showing that the system works well enough for Hedda to consider it for elftown.

I think I could help by looking after sections of the wiki, I do run one or two things and set up a system of pages for my stuff that looks neat. I'd be happy to do that elsewhere.

2007-05-24 [Stephen]: Actually, RPG Realm needs more non-Elftown support than anything right now. Getting friends to sign up on the non-Elftown member list would be really nice. :)

[xido] - I do understand what you mean, but as I've said before, I don't see Hedda doing it. :(

2007-05-24 [Estantia]: hm, i don't know many out of et people who rp...

2007-06-02 [xido]: Really? I know quite a few, and have invited quite a number of them to join ET...

I agree, it is not going to be implemented anytime soon, but at least it has been created for future reference.

Estantia, what do you feel you could do best for moderating the wikipages? I would be more than happy to see you have more of a part in keeping things moving smoothly.

2007-06-02 [Estantia]: Good question... I can do quite a lot of things but I'd probably be best at writing information on the species or sorting out a layout...

by the way, would fantasy humans be split into professions? Such as warrior, spellcaster, etc? If so then is it fair for the human clan to be only diplomatic?

2007-06-03 [xido]: The Creature List always welcomes new content on the pages, of course.

If you feel that further subdividing the Clan is the best choice, it is purely your decision at this point. Professions, Titles, Ranks or Classes like these are not necessarily racial in nature, though if that is not important to your vision of the Clan's future.

See the WFR Char Rank Page for a few ideas on ranks and professional titles if you would like.

2007-06-03 [Estantia]: It just seems that in many cases the people who realy wish to be another creature may also wish to be part of a diplomatic clan, and we all know what humans are capable of. Maybe it would be better to have two or three (or one) diplomat per race?

2007-06-03 [xido]: I think all the Clans are capable of a certain level of diplomacy, and since each Clan will have an appointed or elected official to vote for them, the leader (or chairperson, or head of Clan or whatever) will be the primary diplomat to the officials that the Clans answer to (in the future, this person will be someone delegated from the Council or [Hedda], should things take shape positively or even that strange word, 'officially'. Humans take a special place in moderating, since they are not technically fantasy or fictional races (though our imaginations can fix that problem), and they help to keep solid relations and communication between the Fantasy Majority GOP House and the Fantasy Minority, or MGP House. As a more 'common' race, they are assumed to be part of the GOP House, even though they were not listed on <poll:73926>.

2008-03-10 [Earoluim]: Can someone send me a message breaking all of this down? PLease ?

2008-03-11 [Estantia]: from what I've seen there may not be need, the clans still seem to be up but the council's not? [xido], what's happening?

2008-03-11 [xido]: The RP Council died, but the Clans live on.

The WFR will soon be under new Guild Leadership, and with my choice to take up a professional niche in RPGs and art marketing/production, I am trying to wrap up any loose ends that may exist.

No Elftown Clans member will be required to join the WFR, but I believe that the Elftown Guards will have to work with the WFR Guild Knights and Guards in order to best represent our fostered gamers and fiction fan community.

This page would have stayed enacted had there been any real progress in the last year, but with the RRPG's mods unwilling to renovate Elftown features, and the Guild's choice not to leave or over-branch itself, it's fair to say that asking Elftown Clans lead members to at least apply to the Guild with a character or written example application, or a simple letter of intent to show that they are truly willing to be involved in a proactive project would be enough reason for me to see them continue being a part of a project already too large for its boots.

Since no one understood being a part of a wiki-page group based around a forum of invited and open membership, I am calling this project a 'closed-door' project, in that it will no longer simply allow people to join at a whim, and I will no longer invite random people, which seemed to annoy more than it did to create interest.

With that said, if you would like to debate the issue peacefully, I am still open to suggestions, but no one here is losing their position.

The Elftown Clans remain open, active, and welcoming new members and leadership for those Clans who do not already have instated leadership, but until it is a project that the populace and Crew of Elftown accepts as productive and stable, it is not something I want to leave tagging behind while I walk away from overall leadership of the Guild and my projects later this year.

[Estantia], if you would like to send [Earoluim] a message describing the manners and methods of the Elftown Clans, as they relate to Fantasy Races and the Creature_List creatures (especially those dealt with in the ECM), I would adore if you could explain those details.

Who is in control of these overhead pages is in change. The Clans structure and sovereignty are not.

Thanks and best wishes,
-will

2008-03-12 [Earoluim]: Thank you and you always have my support in these mattters.

2008-03-14 [xido]: Thank you as well, and you are absolutely welcome. If you need anything else answered, just let me know, or tug on the arm of someone here. Aside from the renovation of this page and the accordance of the Guild's proactive involvement, nothing else has changed.

2008-03-14 [Earoluim]: * Bows head and bows over*

2008-03-15 [xido]: *nods in accordance*

2008-05-14 [Stephen]: Small thing, the RRPG's mods have nothing against being on Elftown - Elftown just isn't a rpg site, and the Elftown Administration didn't want Elftown to become a rpg site, so we elected to create our own site. :p

2008-05-15 [xido]: Pardon my lack of concern for them, but the Elftown Administration has a hard time deciding on what's best for their members, especially when their members consistently tell them what they would like to see.

I have a hard time being compassionate toward an internal governance structure that cares little for the opinions of its community and a complete lack of dedication to forward movement in most aspects of the community's actions. It seems to be all for them, and nothing for anyone else. That is not a stable nor effective governing structure, and I think the flaws are finally starting to show themselves.

ET needs a hike in its member-orientation and fast. The numbers show everything. If you don't believe me, ask a Council Member: [Artsieladie]. It's not opinion; it's a fact. The Council has shown their true colors in countless ways, and since Elftown's population dwindles, they need to think of some new ways to keep people on board. Badges are not enough at this point. It's going to take some really thick community-oriented moves to get the town's head back above water. I certainly hope you agree. We are two of the most dedicated members this town has (along with others, mind you), and our thoughts go unnoticed despite large amounts of volunteer work put forward. If you can't take care of something proactively, chances are that it won't get taken care of. I have countless times tried to show the Council ways in which we could both promote membership morale as well as returning ET members, and have consistently been told that my ideas were not helpful nor worth putting forward effort upon.

In any organization, the most efficient method of governance includes having a primary non-member board of directors, and a consumer advisory board for members to voice their concerns. We have a suggestions forum, and a whole lot of crew members that don't want to do anything when we ask them to change something. I have personally only had one suggestion taken into consideration by Hedda himself, and that was a coding error that produced a strange result, which he then fixed that same night in one fell swoop. Aside from this, Elftown's progress has been greatly undermined by vested personal interests (note: the same reason they tell me that I am too pushy about my ideas - them being personal interests and all).

I am not taking the Council's concerns into account any longer. It is no longer prudent nor efficient to do so. Hope that helps clear it up on why I don't want to move forward with the RRPG idea any more... I don't find it uninteresting; it's just something that is clearly not going to move forward, because only we want it to happen. Not only that, but it would also take away some of their members, rendering this community in an ever worse condition if we choose not to return as often because of the transition. It is a lose-lose situation for them, and therefore not something they care to consider.

I hate to sound like an ass, but that's clearly not an obstacle that will be overcome in a few days or weeks. Elftown needs a facelift and a resurrection, or else it will dwindle down to the Council and a handful of brown-nosing bunny-people from the planet Goo-Gah who stick around to watch it wash away in the flood of the jaded people who have been here for years and seen little results from their work on forward progression. Just my take on it,
-will

2008-05-15 [Veltzeh]: Whoa. I don't even know where that came from! O_o But as far as I know, Elftown isn't a commercial business, and you seem to be talking about ET like it was one, xido. It doesn't mean your tricks wouldn't work, but eh... I don't know, I'm too clueless for this stuff. I wish I could explain more, but I'm not sure how to put it and I wouldn't like to unintentionally offend you.

2008-05-15 [Estantia]: Xido, I can't help but think you're being a little harsh, an entire conversion to a role playing site would only serve to alienate the people who don't like roleplaying, but are nevertheless valuable members and artists. Yes, maybe a complete conversion IS needed, I'm not saying it's not, but forcing so many people to jump on board with your ideas, despite what they may be or how good they are (I do like the idea) seems a bit forceful.

2008-05-16 [xido]: That's the thing: many of the ideas I have put forward over the last few years (not simply the last few weeks) have run into complete apathy from the Crew and Hedda. That's why I have simply given up on pushing forward with them any more. That's why you will not offend me by saying something lame. It won't work because it doesn't hurt me to know how short-minded the people and Crew of ET have become anymore.

It's true that Elftown is not commercial, but it's amusing to me how many times I have been told that my personal interests and 'pet projects' are not for ET's future, but ET is in and of itself a 'pet project' of this variety. So here, when I put a bunch of work forward and say, "hey, let's try this new idea, which might make ET even more popular and fun!" and get less than amicable response and a light pat on the back as the door closes behind me, it's no longer difficult for me to know that ET will simply not move forward anymore. Stagnation is apparently the best way to deal with new ideas and motivated individuals, it seems.

As far as I am concerned, this is only harsh because roleplaying is dealt with in a harsh manner, and I no longer care to hear how biased people think I am about this hobby. If I truly wanted to make a site ONLY about RPG, I would just go and make it. The facts here are simple: I have a hobby; I am good at my hobby; I want to share it with the world; I know how, and can do it without any incentive. Despite all of this, people see my actions as somehow trying to convert ET to something it is not, when it is obvious that that is exactly what the Town is: a place for people to have fun doing what they love. When some people's ideas are overrun by others, that is unfair. But saying that RPG-oriented ideas have no place in Et is exactly the hypocrisy that I am tired of dealing with. RPGs can happen without changing ET into a RPG-only site. If that was my intention, I would have simply left a long while ago. The fact of the matter is that I am an artist and writer as well, and I understand exactly what ET is and is not. I don't need a bunch of people to tell me that, like it's a clarification.

Finally, as I said before, this group (the RP Council) is no longer an active group. The Elftown Clans flopped when it was run by this group, and therefore I must salvage it or see all my hard work go down the tubes because of the apathy and non-motivation of others. I won't let that happen, and that is why I have decided that the WFR will take care of the Clans. Since the Guild actually knows how to productively run a project like this, I have no fear in allowing they and I the opportunity to keep the Clans working properly until a change occurs which will give us a better platform to be active.

I personally think that the RRPG will never move forward with the ET Crew's help. It's obvious that it is not a high priority for most members, and it is not beneficial to most people involved, outside of those who are ALREADY motivated and willing to work hard for a good result. The way I see it, moving forward is not something ET is very good at.

Again, ET is not commercial, but it is also OBVIOUSLY flopping in popularity, and my personal opinion is that this is highly due to some particular Crew Members (no names) being highly biased, extrememly unwelcoming to new members and ideas, and overtly apathetic to the wants and needs of others who have joined the community. Along with this fact, the governance structure does not create equality in any form; it only creates separation and more issues than necessary, and it also allows some people to get exactly what they want, while others must sit by helpless and do nothing (regardless of their skills, talents, or motivation to do more). That is a failing organizational structure to the core, and it will only show more and more as the years go by if something is not done to remedy it. That is not conjecture; it is a fact of life. Look at any business or non-profit organization... It will show you exactly those facts, no if's, and's or but's about it.

Agreed, I am being harsh. It's not easy to be nice and happy when everyone around you cares so little about what you think. In my opinion (since this page serves no purpose any longer) this is my page, and I can say what I want here. If it's too harsh, I would recommend not watching the page, and we can all let it fall into memory alone.

The Guild will continue to take care of the Elftown Clans so that this group is no longer necessary. And since I will be handing off Guild Leadership to [Kim_Lundin] later this year, no one can say that I am doing this for biased or 'pet project' reasons, since that was a lame excuse for telling me, "No" to begin with.

Alienating people who like to roleplay is not justified by saying that not allowing roleplay aspects into the community is a good idea. That's unreasonable and rude to those members who have a real and true urge to make a difference in their community (even if it does exist in cyberspace alone). They way I see it, my words are not nearly as harsh as the attitudes of those who wish to keep Elftown small and biased. Try being told that your ideas aren't good enough for five years in a row on a community that is about as popular as a platypus... THAT'S harsh. I am simply returning the favor. ;)

If I had simply asked everyone else to do the work for me and then sit back and do nothing, I could see how these words could be considered harsh. I have done the work for everyone else for years, and with little to no reward, outside of the popularity and membership of the WFR until recently... The way it looks to me, hard work is not rewarded here. Working for the 'pet projects' of the Crew is okay, but trying to make your own ideas move forward is a helpless move with no immediate results guaranteed or even expected. That is harsh.

It kind of makes me wonder exactly why I did join in 2003 when the site began.... If I can't make a difference, why am I here? Something tells me that I am not the only one who has questioned ET in this way. Knowing that, are these words really so harsh? What would you say in my position? What would you do?  Would you feel more inclined to try and make a difference if every time you turned around it went completel unnoticed or at best disregarded? Now think about the noobs who show up with a boat-load of ideas, and none of them do anything.... It's an interesting perspective, isn't it?
-will

2008-05-16 [xido]: PS: I really do appreciate that fact that y'all put up with the rants and I really do take your input into account.... Like I said, I am no longer offended by opposition to my ideas. It is a fact of life for me now on this site. I am glad that you put up with me long enough to read this shit, but it is really just that: me posting my thoughts on this page. It's not like anything is really going to get done here. I wish I didn't have to say that, but it's true.