2006-08-04 [Dracotot]: no I just cant drink them! lol

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Nyquil rocks my socks. Which while I am on it are usually multicoloured.

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: o.O

2006-08-04 [Dracotot]: lol

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: They dont actually sell it over here. We only gont some as my aunt brought it over from the US when she wasnt meant to XD
That shit makes you see things.

2006-08-04 [Dracotot]: LOL kewl

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: I need me some of that.

2006-08-04 [Azuri]: Lol thats why we call it the green death. Nyquill will put you out but not before making you hallucinate something fierce

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Like the walls closing in on you...

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: o.O And this is legal?

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Not here its not XD

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Ya well, we're prudes xD

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Precisely! E-bay imports all the way!!!

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Indeed >:D *orders*

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: ^.^;

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: This shit could get me in jail right? xD

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Nah...at least I don't think so o.O

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Damn xD

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Why would you WANT to go to jail? XD

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Follow the family tradition mun XD
That, and the fact a random bloke waved at me from Swansea jail once, that was nice. Oh, and some boy got to go to jail on Brookside ^_________^ I blame this on Lisa.

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: ...ooooooooooooooooooooooooohk then *pet pet*

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: I have something to aim for in life! :D >_<

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: yes, being my loyal minion friend and helping me distribute stuff up and down this Island we both be on when the time comes XD

BTW: that goes for all of you people!!

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: *salutes* Righty-o, you want fries with that? o.O

2006-08-04 [Azuri]: Hehe ::spreads the word of dela far and wide::

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: woooh! and yes, yes I would.

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Rawr *hands them over*

*dances* LEARN TO SWIM!

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: *munches*

Eh I cannot swim. For love nor money. But for shoes I may make an exception.

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: *steals some* I ish watching err, what am I watching? *checks* Oh, The law of the playground xD

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: OOh its good aint it

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Oh yeah, what's his name is on there, the gay bloke off the friday night project xD

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Alan Carr

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: *loves him*

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: I've switched over to Billy Con'ly ^^

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: :O *ish watching big brother*

2006-08-04 [Azuri]: *has no clue whats being talked about*

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: fiend XD

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Good lord [Azuri] move your arse to Britain! xD

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: :O Is thee calling me a fiend?? xD

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: Yesh!! Bad Squue watching the BB

2006-08-04 [sequeena_rae]: Rawr. I loves it xP

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: BAH!

2006-08-04 [Azuri]: Ewww BB ish icky *moves to overseas somewhere*

2006-08-04 [Delladreing]: wooh

2006-08-05 [Avoral]: Can't swim?
That's got to be a witch blending mechanism.

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: Heh :P I'm afraid to melt

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: Meh, BB is great. Ebil peoples xD

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: If I didnt lobe you muchly I'd kiiiill you XP

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: *ish all innocent and cute* Aren't I lucky I'm loveable then? xP *holds up sign* Go BB!! Glyn to win!!

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: >.<; :P eeeeeeeeeeeeeh I'll biff you up later for that

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: Mwahahahahahaahaha! I shall be waiting >:D

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: *biffs*

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: BAH! >_x

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: Told you.

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: *biffs back* :p

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: *biffs again*

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: *glares, biffs back again*

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: ...*biffs with a cushtie*

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: Who da fook? o.O

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: A "cushtie" its a brand of cushion.

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: Eeeeek! *grabs an even bigger cushion* It's from a...Bed :O It shall be known as a pillow! *whacks*

2006-08-05 [Delladreing]: foooj *runs away*

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: *evil laughter* >:D

2006-08-05 [a faerie tale]: ...Did I miss something?

2006-08-05 [sequeena_rae]: Nah xD

2006-08-05 [The Naiad]: Now let me just again plug some of my new art pics on here. LOL. Yay!

2006-08-06 [Azuri]: Awww!!! shes so cute!

2006-08-06 [The Naiad]: Yeah, she's my cousin. ^-^

2006-08-06 [Delladreing]: It's a very good photo

2006-08-06 [The Naiad]: Thank you Dela. ^-^ How are you all anyways?

2006-08-06 [Delladreing]: Dying, but I will leave it at that.
You?

2006-08-06 [The Naiad]: Oh dear. Poor Dela. *Hugs* No, I've not been feeling too good myself.

2006-08-06 [Delladreing]: Everyone that I have spoke to says that recently :\ maybe there is something in the UK air -lol- *Hugs*

2006-08-06 [The Naiad]: LOL. Maybe. I blame the government.

2006-08-06 [Delladreing]: yea lets just blame them

2006-08-06 [sequeena_rae]: Stoopid government -_-

2006-08-06 [The Naiad]: Stupids. :(

2006-08-06 [sequeena_rae]: I also blame jam

2006-08-06 [Delladreing]: and stuff in general

2006-08-06 [sequeena_rae]: Yeah xD

2006-08-06 [Azuri]: Lol stupid stuff.

2006-08-07 [a faerie tale]: Awww, a child!

2006-08-07 [Delladreing]: Captured with very skillfull photography :)

2006-08-08 [The Naiad]: Ohhh, thank you Dela. :)

2006-08-08 [Delladreing]: Most welcome.

2006-08-08 [The Naiad]: Weeeee... hopefully on Wednesday I'll have some Bowie inspired photos back - my friend dressed up as Ziggy Stardust and posed for me. Hehe. RED BOOTS! ^-^

2006-08-08 [Delladreing]: Awesome.

2006-08-08 [The Naiad]: Yeah. *Breaks into song* "Ziggy played guit-arrrrrrrr-ar!" Hehe.

2006-08-08 [Delladreing]: *pet pet*

2006-08-08 [The Naiad]: *Grins insanely* :D

2006-08-10 [sequeena_rae]: Oh, I saw those!

2006-08-10 [Delladreing]: ...my room smells of soap suddenly.... o.O;

2006-08-10 [sequeena_rae]: o.O Ghosties! xD

2006-08-10 [Willow Rose]: My mother, and grandmother and aunts and uncle, and quite a few other people used to say my Grandmother's house was haunted. The broom would sweep across the floor by itself, and things would move, books pages would flip, footsteps up and down the stairs and things like that. And in the one bedroom upstairs, every now and then it would smell strongly of lilacs in the winter, when no one had any perfume or anything of it, and sometimes coffee or peppermint.

2006-08-10 [Delladreing]: Sounds like a poltergiest to me. Our house is meant to have one, but since I have taken up lodgings in the deceases "room" as it were and cleared the energy area all the weirdness that went on stopped.

2006-08-10 [Willow Rose]: Hmm. I should have done that when we lived in my Grandmother's house a year, that place creeped me out.

2006-08-11 [sequeena_rae]: My sister had poltergeist in the house she lived in at Fairyland (odd name I know :P). Oddness I say.

2006-08-11 [Delladreing]: Always helps when one moves in to a new place to clear the air as it were. People tend to leave their mark on places.

2006-08-11 [a faerie tale]: My friends house had a ghostie. I tried a couple of things, spells, charms, etc., and they didn't work. Finally, we just asked the ghost to leave.
And that worked. :P
I then felt very depressed about my magical abilities. XD

2006-08-11 [sequeena_rae]: My sister put a cross in the bath (don't ask xD) and said the Lord's prayer, and something about being the master of her house. Eh, it worked I think, she was told to do it by the local vicar xD

2006-08-11 [Delladreing]: Maybe it got bored in to leaving :p

2006-08-11 [a faerie tale]: Haha. Very nice.

2006-08-11 [sequeena_rae]: Gah! St00pid computer -_-
Ah, I wouldn't worry about it. Ghosts and poltergeists have a mind of their own I reckon :P

2006-08-11 [Rondel]: Think about it this way... ...if you wanted anyone else to leave, would you start with spells and charms, or by asking them (nicely, one hopes) to leave? Which do you think would be more likely to get a positive response?

2006-08-11 [sequeena_rae]: Actually, now thinking about it, isn't it a bit mean thing to kick someone out of their home? Even if they are dead?

2006-08-11 [Delladreing]: Depends on how well they treat the home or not. The only reason I "cleared the air" was to stop the nightmares I got from being in the room and to stop the noises that scared my family. I don't think the presence is "gone" I think its just "settled"

2006-08-11 [sequeena_rae]: Oh. Well, I suppose that's alright XD *feels guilty*

2006-08-12 [Azuri]: I never stopped the nightmares at my grandparents house, though god knows i did try! I just moved instead...into of course another haunted house :/ but that ok cause i moved a few months later to the first none haunted house Ive EVER lived in

2006-08-12 [moonscale]: My friend refuses to sleep in her bed. the gohst of a vicar lives in the corner of her room. She usually sleeps on the couch. I'm thining of trying to 'settle' it so she can finally sleep. (she sure needs it!) if you hve any suggestions could please message me as I'll be gone for a while? Thank you very much.

2006-08-12 [The Naiad]: I always think about ghosts, especially when driving along at night. My grandfather gave me a book when I was younger "500 British Ghosts and Hauntings" - it's a great book, but freaked the hell out of me. LOL. There's so many ghosts sightings, and lots happen to drivers on dark roads at night. :S The screaming skull legends are the worst though.

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: I hate to say it people, but having this many people here who have lived in haunted dwellings is a coincidence beyond measure... Im going to have to call bull on the personal experiences here. Granted, you may have "known someone who knew someone," but I doubt that the run-ins have been that personal.

2006-08-12 [sequeena_rae]: Eh, probably not. Houses are getting older you know, and the site it stands on could have had something else there.
Meh. Do not call me a liar.

2006-08-12 [sequeena_rae]: And there's what? Four of us? And only two of us live in the same country -_-

2006-08-12 [Delladreing]: Well yea, seen as how nearly everyone here is pagan, and we seek out those that have similar experiences. And most of us live in old towns and houses. And even then, I get non pagans on here saying the same thing. Its human nature to ask about the dead. and to have some experience with it.

2006-08-12 [sequeena_rae]: That is also true xD

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: But it is still unusual- many will chalk up your experiences to semi- psychotic episodes, illusions of your own mind, or seeing the Sixth Sense too early on in life. If you study certain parts of the brain, (a friend of mine did a study on this) There are certain lobes of the brain that respond to terror, unease, etcetera. Those areas have been becoming enlarged over the past eighty years or so, and that is why so many people are being diagnosed with brain disorders when in fact all that they have are cases of paranoia that are genetic instead of self-induced. 

2006-08-12 [sequeena_rae]: This is true *has studied* but I'm a firm believer :)

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: My point is, ghosts may exist- it is a direct possiblity, even in the Christian faith (though try to get a Catholic to admit it) because of the existence of purgatory, out of body experiences, etcetera, but you are more likely to run across thousands of people who have seen Kings and Tribal Leaders and Dead Presidents and so on than you will find people who will say that they have seen a mideval serf. 

To say it simply- people who go out expecting things find them. I'd be careful before you say that something is a ghost before you consider that it may be a spirit of decit or other entity.

2006-08-12 [Delladreing]: I know, I study it too, or did. I've also had a brain scan or two in my already relatively short life, and apparently there is nothing wrong with me :p

But when dealing with people who's live revolve around things of a spiritual nature one is BOUND to find any number of people with ghost stories to tell.

As a child growing up in this house, long before I knew about anything like this, or the Sixth Sense Movie, going in the attic made me ill. It had a psyhical reaction. Quite similar to that of a concusion but without any reasoning. Doctors at the time thought I was being abused until no evidence could be found. In the end when I was in therapy years later on for a different matter which is not up for discussion on this wiki, I told my therapist who told me that it was similar to what a twin might experience where the other hurt.

Years after that we found out that a girl had died in the attic which is now my room. She had sustained a major blow to the head.

*shrugs* go figure.

2006-08-12 [sequeena_rae]: o.O How would you describe mine then? I've never seen a dead famous person and I will never claim to (unless I see one :P). Just because someone saw a dead famous person doesn't mean it's all in their mind. It could and can happen.

2006-08-12 [Delladreing]: Numerous people have reported seeing Marilyn Monroe in mirros in a certain hotel which currently eludes me, possibly the one she died. Even children who dont know the sotry or who Monroe was have reportedly turned round and said "mommy theres a woman in the mirror and shes sad".

Maybe its not ghosts, maybe its just the imprint some people leave behind. *shrugs* either way, it does happen, and not just to those with brain disorders or are totally mental.

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: The point is, most spirits are out to confuse and cajole you into doing what they want- which is why they make themselves out to be more than they actually are. And as for the incident that Delandering described above, are you sure you are not simply empathic? I know several people who are, and they say that rather than see ghosts they feel the sensations of people who have felt something very extreme. They had no foreknowledge of it, and researched it later to confirm it. I have no explanation for the noises, it is entirely possible that the house may be haunted, but I doubt that it is a ghost, simply because they are very rare, and much less common than people are led to belive.

2006-08-12 [sequeena_rae]: Hhmmm, maybe, I've never thought about it o.O It's not like it happens all the time xD

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: Just something to look into- Seeing ghosts is like people seeing Christ in soap scum or the Virgin Mary in a cloud- more often than not, it's just something else, and all stories as such should be treated with the greatest speculation. That does not mean that a story is ingenuine, but if it carries more than three to six things on a mental list I have, then I call bull. If it carries more than six, I just let people be delusional. 

2006-08-12 [sequeena_rae]: Erm, okay o.O *decides to never look at clouds*

2006-08-12 [Delladreing]: Yes actually I am empathic, but its not something I like to throw about in conversation, it makes me sound like a little playgan bragging on about things, so I keep myself to myself. But the thing is, people who lived here have also said they have "seen" the girl. My mother once thought it was me untill I came up behind her. My friend who knew nothing of the history of the house woke me up once to tell me she'd "seen a face" in the rafters looking down" at her and wanted to crawl in to bed with me because no matter where she moved to, the face "didnt go near" me. People that never really spoke to our family much upon hearing where we lived went "oh...THERE..." and the whole story came out. Members of the local church agreed the house was "haunted", but I believe my own experience was more empathic as I can only ever say I saw a face once and then it was gone.

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: It is possible that yours is a genuine haunting- but I would still remain skeptical. Have you tried to talk to the spiritual entity, or did you do a spell to make it stay calm, or something else? 

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: and LOL, very much LOL

2006-08-12 [Delladreing]: I tried interaction once or twice. Simply talking to it asking what was wrong, after all it was a child "ghost" so I thought treating it like one would help. I can say I never got any real feed back in words, but I did often get a sharp pains, again with the empathy I suppose, but in the end I resorted to yes a "spell" in which I offered up love and affection wishing for the "little girls" pain to end so that she could be happy, and if she wanted to stay that was just fine, just please stop scaring and hurting people. After that things became calmer. Since then I have felt very little. I was able to move my bed back in to the room where the addicent happened. I only ever "feel" anything if I am doing a magical working in the area or a tarot reading when my mind is more "open" but it has no pain to it or...hmm, hard to explain the sensation really. It just feels like there is someone else in the room (y'know that feeling you get when you know someone is looking at you?) when I stop the working it gradually fades. Its like if I do nothing of interest the "ghost" leaves me to it. But if I am doing something that means I am more likely to be able to "pay attention" well its like a child tugging at your sleeve I suppose.

2006-08-12 [ueryurwt]: Understood, and congrats. When this stuff happens to me the first thing I do is pray. I try to find out what is really going on, and if it is even possible to fix the problem. Oddly enough, the biggest problem I have ever had with spirits are in my friends house. It's almost a spiritual vaccuum for demons. I could attribute this to a number of things (a twice weekly D&D session being one of them) but nothing to the degree of what you are talking about. I just ask God to have them leave the house so I can go to sleep, and usually it works. When it doesn't, it means that someone in the house is actively doing something naughty (looking at porn, etc...)  You can't make something go away that is welcomed by someone else, you know.

2006-08-12 [Delladreing]: Never heard of D&D bringning about demons and what not but then again I've never played it, but I doubt it can o.O, same with the porn thing but then again I'm not there so I can't fully say.

2006-08-13 [Azuri]: O.o DnD has absolutly NOTHING to do with ghosts/spirits/the devil(wasnt aloud to play for the longest time cause my mom though it was some satanic thing). I am a avid Dnd player and theres a crap ton of porn in my house right now(what i live with three males what did you expect?) and well like ive said this is the only house ive ever lived in that wasnt haunted. I live with a Catholic he believes in ghosts and will admit to it so im not sure where your getting that conclusion at. We have quite the mix of people in our house. One Catholic One Pagan One Baptist type and One Undecided(cant remember the name, belives in higher power but not in any religion) I stay gone for far too long and have to play catch up with the converstation XD

2006-08-13 [ueryurwt]: I have been a dungeon master for seven years, was atheistic for about sixteen years, buddhist for one, pagan (not some pansy new age one either)for three, thought about druidism and decided against it, and settled on Christianity. 

I studied, in depth, the effects of attributing metaphysical powers in an environment that could make them seem realistic if an extreme viewpoint is taken. I would not say that I am a victim, but I have experienced firsthand the impact of taking something too far, like this gaming group does. Anything that revolves around what could be considered sin will provoke a demonic presence, no matter where or who you are.

As far as anything else: Catholics are just an example of a superconservative group. There are exceptions to every generalzation, and it is entirely possible that you simply don't notice the presence because you don't have the ability to.

Again, I speak from a blend of research and experience, as well as from the viewpoint of someone who was possessed (literally) since the age of five.

2006-08-13 [Delladreing]: ...see to me it just now sounds like you are taking lines right out of my wiki except you are agreeing with them.

D&D cannot promote demons, nor does Harry Potter teach witchcraft. If it is considered a sin by one group it does not make it a sin by another. To me D&D is just silly (no offence guys) I mean, how the hell would a demon confuse the summon of that of a real pagan, and that on someone rolling dice? Seriously, give the undead evil some credit, they do have brains you know, what with being manipulative and possessing people *snort*

And porn, meh, I don't mind admitting to having seen and watched porn, and funnily enough with all my empathy, I felt no evil. Unless some demon possessed my partner and that was what made him pounce on me. Although I think it had something to do with his own natural libido, seen as how he had reacted similar before.
Unless, oh noes! I've been tricked along and been screwing a possessed person :O

2006-08-13 [Azuri]: XD Id give you guys a serious answer right now but im fresh outa the ER XD

2006-08-13 [sequeena_rae]: I can't even give sensible answers. I have this thing of wandering off mid conversation xD Eh, I'd say leave it to those two :P

2006-08-13 [Azuri]: *pets* its ok * Weeees around room*

2006-08-13 [sequeena_rae]: o.O

2006-08-14 [ueryurwt]: *spins a pack of oreos in the air* EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF!

2006-08-14 [sezmo lex]: i got handfasted on saterday! i had a lovly red dress and an ivy crown it was amazing!

2006-08-14 [Delladreing]: Aww congratulaions :D

2006-08-14 [sequeena_rae]: :D That's so sweet! :3 congrats!

2006-08-14 [The Naiad]: I hope you had a blessed day [sezmo lex]. :)

2006-08-14 [a faerie tale]: Ohh, fun. Conratulations.
Too bad I wasn't here for the Dela/Architect fest. Looked like fun.
I was busy smashing pots. :)

2006-08-15 [ueryurwt]: LOL

2006-08-17 [JWOlette]: umm question whats handfasted?????

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: It's a marriage ceremony.
Though not legally binding right? o.O You still have to go to the registrars? (sp? XD)

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: Yes you still need to register your marriage, same with a "regular" marriage :)

2006-08-17 [Rondel]: It is worth noting that, in some areas, a pagan officiant can perform a legally binding "handfasting" that is legally equivalent to any other marriage ceremony. Alternatively, a legal ceremony can be held separately from the religious one.

Also, some pagan approaches to handfasting are distinct from civil marriage or marriage as practised by "the peoples of the Book" (Christian, Jewish, Islamic); I've known people who chose handfasting "for a year and a day" (sometimes as an equivalent to a "trial marriage", or a more binding engagement -- the couple were functionally married and living together, but had to choose at the end of that time whether they would renew their commitment on a permanent basis, part, or renew for a shorter period), while others were bound together for "as long as love shall last".

Sometimes these were done in a legally binding way, and other times, they were simply observed by those involved, as if they were a "common-law marriage" or a "de facto relationship". In all respects, many of these pagan handfastings were distinctively different from marriage as it is viewed by the Christian church (for example), while others were nearly identical; but in all cases, there are still equivalent degrees of commitment *within the mutual understandings of the people involved*, and the legal union is the same one.

This is one more reason why pagan officiants are bound by the same laws that bind other religious officiants when it comes to performing legal unions -- they either meet the requirements, and can perform both legal and religious portions of the marriage ceremony, or else they don't, and the legal portion needs to be performed by a civil officiant (such as a Justice of the Peace), separately (or possibly even integrated with) the religious ceremony.

Now, as it happens, here in Australia, those requirements make it more difficult for pagan officiants to meet them than it is for the average Christian minister, due to differences in the organizational structure of the religion... ...but there are still pagan officiants who can perform the legal union as well as the religious one. And, by the same token, there are nonpagan religious officiants who do not meet the legal requirements, and must have the legal portion of the ceremony performed by a registered officiant, in a state-registered *secular* ceremony which must be performed as registered, without alteration of any portion of the service in word or phrase.

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: ...[Rondel] for any chance are you for hire? :P
I'm not sure how much the average walking fountain of knowledge goes for but I bet you I can beat whatever the other people offer ;)

Heh, I had a friend who not being pagan, wanted to have a year and a day marriage to see if it would work out. It was over within...5 weeks I believe. Apparnelt yit my my fault because it wasnt a "real" wedding. Hah, would have helped if she had viewed it as a marriage and not ran off with another guy but oh well. Here in the UK I believe it is still rather hard for a legal binding marriage to be performed here in the pagan sense, a bit like Austrailia I believe. I have yet to go to a handfasting where right after it while everyone else is getting wasted on honey mead that the bride and groom are not in an office somewhere doing the legal side to things.

2006-08-17 [Azuri]: Lol, ive never been to a handfasting but I believe my friend back in indiana intends on holding one, though im not sure if its legal and binding to the state or not here in the USA

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: Never been to one either ^^ I'm not sure that where I live there's anywhere 'safe' for it o.O

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: Eh the way I'd deal with a handfasting, would be to get the legal part out of the way and then go for the whole religion/party thing.

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: That would work *nod* much more practical :P

2006-08-17 [Azuri]: Lol. You know since I moved into the "Bible Belt" Ive never seen so many pentacles,penagrams and statanic things O.o back in indiana people got their bums kicked or made fun of for wearing that sort of stufff....Ill be it I was the one making fun of people for wearing overly huge jelwery proclaiming their faith but I wasnt the only one XD

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: Yea, s'like that here. I live in what is essentially a "bible belt" my small village has 7 churches all next to each other. And yet, we have mote "gothic" teenagers and "pagans" than I see out at university every day in Glasgow City Center. Its damned annoying how many of them hang around in graveyards "drawing power" >.<

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: o.O W.T.F?

2006-08-17 [Azuri]: So true so true, we have *trys to think* about 5 churchs on the main road next to my house alone! there are about 50 billion more in the town i swear. The first person I met after getting settled in here was this girl name Leona O.o wore all black clothing had at least 6 pentacles on, i didnt say a word to her that I was pagan for fear she would try to cling to me and introduce her whoring ways to me O.o

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: I have...One Methodist church near where I live o.o

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: o.O Dman you :p

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: Eh, not my fault XD They daren't put churches in my area, for the simple reason that there won't be a church left a week later :P

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: Heh, here they just put barbed wire on them >.>
I found it funny at first when I saw the crucific with barbed wire on it. But when I saw it burning, it was just poor taste.

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: Awww, that's sad :(

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: Yea. It was the "Pagan" kids as well. For which I felt compelled to drag their little shit stirrer leader to one side and duff them up.

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: xD Which nobody would blame you for :P

2006-08-17 [Delladreing]: They didnt either.

2006-08-17 [sequeena_rae]: xD

2006-08-17 [a faerie tale]: There are at least three baptist churches here. Not much fun for an open lesbian. :p

2006-08-18 [JWOlette]: umm yea thanx for clueing me in i was to young to remember the last one i went to n my grandma doesnt talk much about our traditions anymore

2006-08-18 [Rondel]: Baptist would be one of the worst options for an open non-heterosexual of either gender. *sigh* That's the stripe of fundamentalist my relatives (both by birth and by marriage) have traditionally been, and it makes life more than a bit interesting in terms of retaining cordial relations, I can assure you. *sigh*

As for the USA, I was living in the US when I first encountered pagan legal weddings/handfastings. I don't know the laws for Indiana in particular, but I know that in much of the US, any legally ordained minister (regardless of faith) can perform a legal wedding. That's why and where I obtained my own ordination, although it isn't useful here in Australia, where the legal requirements are different. I know that in Oregon and Washington states, for instance, one allows any legally ordained officiant to perform a legally-binding wedding ceremony, while the other has slightly stronger requirements about congregational support and the sponsorship of another already-legally-ordained individual to attest to the officiant's status within their religion. But, if you can get something like 20 people to attest that you are a minister/equivalent within your religious faith, and an individual who is already thus qualified to agree, then you're in. Since we had other friends in the pagan community who were already ordained and had performed legally binding ceremonies, we were set. I've walked others through the process since, but you have to be willing to research the laws for your individual state (and possibly nearby states, in case you need to go with an alternative venue, in order to find a suitably supportive set of laws).

However, I quite agree that if you're going to do a separate legal and religious ceremony, the ideal would be to do the legal first, and then the religious, so you can go straight from the religious ceremony into the reception. Alternatively, if the legal can be done on-site, I've known it to work well for the bride and groom to step aside with the legal officiant immediately after the religious ceremony is complete, while the guests are transitioning from the wedding site to the reception site (even if they're just walking distance apart), and take care of things quickly, before making their grand entrance at the reception.

But it is VITAL that ANY ceremony be taken seriously by the participants, if it's going to be effective and/or binding. Running off with another person weeks afterward can't be prevented by having a legally-binding ceremony if one or both of the participants doesn't take their commitment seriously, or the two do not agree on just what it is that they are committing to. My legally-married oldest friend had that happen to him, and eventually had the marriage annulled, when it turned out that the other party was being both less-than-fully-committed, and less-than-fully honest. *sigh* Turned out that a number of their friends (or more specifically, their friends' partners) were complicit in the betrayal, before the one departed with. That is NOT the result of the religion of the ceremony, or even its intended duration. I have seen year-and-a-day commitments go QUITE well, even when the couple parted at their end, while lifetime ones fell apart. It's all a matter of being honest, serious, and on the same page, so to speak, about all aspects of the relationship.

I rather agree with our own celebrant, who normally required multiple sessions of pre-ceremony counseling (to walk the couple through the questions they should have resolved together before making such a commitment) -- though in our case, he heard us tell him about our own 2-year engagement (in the face of many difficulties), and decided there and then that there was nothing more he needed to do. LOL

2006-08-18 [BarleySinger]: Religious freedom is a lot stronger in the US than in a lot of other places, but then here in OZ they take "common law" spouses as being just as real as those who went through the paperwork. Centrelink (the dole system) and the retirement funds, also include partners of the same gender. Legally, you can worship any way you like, anything you like, but that does not give your church any special legal status as a religion or give you the right to a religious marriage celebrant.

The thing that bugs me the most about the requirements about "being a legal church" or "being a legal minister" in Australia, is that the pattern they have imprinted on is the christian one. You must have a group of people of a certain size who meet weekly, and who own property. The marriage ceremony for a given religion MUST be exactly the same for all couples (you can't write you own vows in a religious ceremony). The ceremony is a part of the religions being registered with the government.

A huge number of people (even religious ones) opt for a civil celebrant becasuse they do not like the restrictions. Recently they started allowing for more civil celebrants who are aimed specifically at parts of society that are not being covered very well (like cultural and religious groups who want their style of marriage ceremony).

If you think about it, according to the laws of Australia, aboriginal spirituality is not legally recognized as a legal religion, since aboriginal Australians don't really recognize the idea of one person (instead of a family group or tribal group) owning land. It would be more realistic to say that the land is theirs to take care of, not to own.

It is nearly impossible to do a legally binding pagan marriage, athough there are a few pagan oriented civil celebrants. Most pagans just do a religious ceremony seperately (or mixed together) with the civil ceremony. So do most Sikhs, Islamics, Shintoists, Buddhists, etc.

As a side note on the earlier "demons and ghosts" thread, no religion stays exactly the same. They tend to imprint on the cultures that they travel through. The ideas of the trinity, of an entity of evil called "satan" or "the devil", of the existence of hell, and of demons were all ideas alien to christianity until several hunderd years after it started. In the early middle ages the christian chuch was quite adamant about the idea that there were no supernatural powers in the universe other than those that came from God. Believing that any power existed that did not come from God was a heresy. Until the later times of the inquisition, saying that you had "powers from satan" or from other deities, got you marked by the church as a mentally befuddled person, not as a witch or pagan. They had people who would try and sort of "talk you down" back to reality. There were several cases of this nature involving the worship of "Madame Orientis" in historical documents.

2006-08-19 [ueryurwt]: therin lies the difference between a religion and a spiritual belief

2006-08-20 [The Naiad]: Oh, you all seem to be having serious topical debates. *Floats in the background*

2006-08-20 [Delladreing]: Hehe yea we were/are. I think I will need to come up with a readers page to rant and rave ;)

2006-08-20 [The Naiad]: Perhaps, I can't keep up with the convos on here anymore - they go so quickly! Heh.

2006-08-20 [The Naiad]: By the way, if anyone's interested, I have new pics up on DeviantArt (http://theraven1988.deviantart.com/gallery/). Here's an example of my new pics:

2006-08-20 [Rondel]: Out of curiosity, [ueryurwt], which of the discussed points is it which you are saying defines the difference between a religion and a spiritual belief? I'm having trouble connecting your statement to a specific item.

2006-08-20 [Rondel]: Speaking of the speed at which topics go by here, and the missed conversation on hauntings:

My goodness, that was an ...interesting... conversation I missed there... LOL I'm tempted to continue it, but it's not necessarily something I want to rekindle.

I do feel a need to comment, however, that I find it very funny when people come across as dogmatic in both their areas of skepticism and their areas of (unsubstantiated) belief.

That said, I don't think that it's possible to have a productive conversation on much of *any* controversial topic without first defining one's terms, and I haven't seen adequate evidence of that here.

For clarification, many people use "ghost" as a catch-all term that classifies things based on their appearance, rather than their inner nature; if the outer characteristics are those that are classically considered a "haunting", that is the short-hand term they will use to describe the phenomenon to themselves, without attempting to determine (in any way, including for their own satisfaction, by proof, or in order to prove it to anyone else) whether it was the result of:
 * a psychometric experience (the result of a sensitive person detecting the residual energy left by a person on a place or object),
 * a psychokinetic experience (the classic "poltergeist phenomenon" as associated with individuals, often pubescent, most frequently girls, whose internal conflict is manifesting in the form of phenomena speculated to be psionic in origin),
 * an actual noncorporeal being of any type (whether
   - "spirit of deceit",
   - "demon",
   - formerly corporeal being (e.g. dead person),
   - or any other posited entity),
 * or simply an "energetic imprint" on the environment which could be sensed by anyone (not just a sensitive person),
 * or might even be active/functional in the absence of an observer's presence (if an energetic imprint haunts a forest, and there's nobody to hear it, does it make a sound?),

or any of the other possible phenomena which have been speculated to be the explanation of those "hauntings" which are NOT the result of an overactive imagination, impressionable media victim, or genuine mental illness.

In short (too late, I know), you can't dismiss a "haunting" as being one of these and NOT being another of them, even as a matter of probability, without defining the term first!

That said, I find that the skeptic's position is vastly undermined by the subsequent articulation of the position that "all activities of a sinful nature summon demons", argued as a statement of fact (still without any definition of terms being given, such as an attempt to explain what a "demon" is, and what differentiates a "demon" from any of the entities postulated as an explantion for "hauntings", not to mention a complete omission of any explicit statement of whose standards are supposed to label a behaviour as "sinful"...), which is somehow supposed to be viewed as a more rational possibility than the idea that some representative from within the entire gamut of phenomena grouped together under the "haunting" label might be experienced by more than one individual within an international group of people with an interest in "spiritual phenomena" (which one would presumably become, if one encountered some kind of a spiritual entity).

Now, from any of several positions, this interchange becomes so laughable when articulated in this (lengthy, but) explicit way, that I really don't think there's much point in spelling out which of those positions I'm personally coming from. I just find it ironic and amusing and worth pointing out in some detail.

Mind you, life is not always in accordance with the popular idea of logical probability, so there is always a possibility that what seems to be the least likely position is the literal truth, so I hesitate to judge any specific person or their position, but I have no difficulty with finding a discussion itself more than a little absurd, by examining it based on its own internal logic.

2006-08-20 [Rondel]: Dela: such a page might be useful -- or maybe one for ongoing serious discussions of the topics which drift through here?

2006-08-20 [Delladreing]: *nod nod* I agree, I actually thought I had such a page, I wonder where it went to.

And nice photo as always Naid

2006-08-20 [The Naiad]: Thank you Dela. ^-^

2006-08-20 [Delladreing]:

Playgans Member Rants

2006-08-20 [The Naiad]: Ohh, thanks Dela. :)

2006-08-20 [Rondel]: You take cool photos, [The Naiad]! <claps> I'm not sure I'd count all of my recent longer comments as "rants", but I love having a new dedicated page for these longer comments on a serious thread, when something of interest drifts through here. I don't want people to take those comments as any constraint on the conversation -- I love the normal interplay on this wiki, and while I'd hate to have to keep from giving the longer comments where something seems to warrant them, I'd equally hate to see them kill the conversation. :D

2006-08-20 [JWOlette]: so how would you suggest going about removing a "demon" from a house my godson is screaming about a bad thing and waking up with claw marks on his back and we hav tried everything execpt callin a catholic priest to rid this thing.....i could really use some help

2006-08-20 [The Naiad]: Thank you [Rondel]. :)
Hmmm... [JWOlette] perhaps these things are quite natural in some way - did you ever play that game when you were younger that someone was going to murder you, and you had to imagine how they'd do it, and usually (if you'd concentrated enough) the marks of where and how you were murdered in the game would appear on you (like a scar might appear on your stomach etc)? Perhaps this is happening to your godson in some sense - perhaps he is dreaming/ imagining something happening to him, and therefore he believes it has really happened and the physical marks appear upon him because the body and brain believes that the event has happened (when in fact it has not)? It's just a thought. I've never really experienced anything frightening like that, I don't really believe in "demons", there are negative and powerful spirits/ Gods around. But, hmmm, I'm not sure.

2006-08-20 [Rondel]: Sounds to me like what you need is a ritual (or something) that will work *for your godson*; in short, whether there is or isn't an external source, if he's convinced that the steps you take would get rid of one (if there was one), then it's likely that any subconscious manifestations via his body/brain connection would go away, as well. What kind of religious beliefs do your godson and those around him have? You need to use a solution which has power FOR HIM. It is my belief that this is one reason why so many Catholics have good results with exorcism-type rituals -- where there are other phenomena involved (say, the psionic type of poltergeist, resulting from a rejection of their own innate talents because they can't view them as anything other than an externally-sourced evil, as the result of their beliefs, or the kind of simple subconscious belief manifesting through body/mind connections, as suggested by [The Naiad]), giving the person a solid reason for accepting that the problem has been dealt with would actually work, regardless of whether the action taken had any "legitimate spiritual power" or not. If you're suffering from the screaming heebie-jeebies, and I can convince you that the cause has stopped, your screaming heebie-jeebies will go away, even if the solution I enact is simply to paint pacman figures on the walls and tell you that this is a symbol which has the power to devour any ghosts that come near it. Belief is an enormously strong power, in its own right. (Or rite, for that matter. LOL)

Does your godson go to church? If so, I'd consider using the symbols of his religion. Does he strongly take to fairy tales? Try using symbols which have protective power in his favourite stories. If he doesn't have strong beliefs of his own, use rites and symbols that have meaning for you -- they may have external validity, but they may also work for him, if he sees you have true confidence in them, and YOU feel sure that the problem will be resolved if you use them. But remember, solutions of this type are a lot like placebos in medicine -- they work if and only if the person really has faith in them. That doesn't make the results obtained any less real, though, and real results are what you need most right now.

Since the concept appears to be "a bad thing" is hurting your godson, what you need to invoke is something which has strong power as "a good thing", to counter it. What does your godson believe in, as a strong, powerful, positive force? This may be as simple as a symbol of the all-encompassing love of someone he has faith will always protect him (like you, or his parents), or even a dreamcatcher! Or maybe his faith in someone he used to see that way is faltering, and the problem is a basically psychological one -- in which case, it may be worth just talking things through with him to see if there's something that has been bothering/frightening him, or if he's been disappointed in one of the people he loves and trusts to be there for him, and it's coming out this way. Remember, those who believe in real spirit beings which can do this sort of thing also tend to believe that they are drawn to those who somehow open a door for them, or are vulnerable due to some kind of "dark/negative" feeling (like despair). There's a reason why our words for spirit (the entity/ghost kind) and spirit (the psyche kind) are so entangled with each other, regardless of the language spoken. These types of problems have been mixed together throughout history, for a reason. Just as the mind and body are connected, so are the soul and the psyche. So I'd try something along one of these avenues, if I were in your shoes. They can be surprisingly effective, if simple, measures to take.

2006-08-21 [windowframe]: (Good god, I hate the 'comments as long as you want' o.<)

2006-08-21 [JWOlette]: well ive tried painting murals and hanging a picture of his father who passed before he was born i told him that daddy would always protect him i tried to tell him to not think of it that it would go away i told him to say leave me alone when he seen the shadow but im seeing it to we hav crosses an pentagrams on the walls in every room we hav all been sleepin in the living room for the past 2 months cuz random things fly off walls the beds shake ive tried dissmissing the activities weve talked to him he tells me everything n hes not disappointed hes a happy 3 year old normally untill the nite comes we even keep the lights on to keep it away but it doesnt work it attacks him no matter wut we tak him to church every week i sit with him even tho its not my faith but nothing has helped the priest and my preistess hav even blessed the house to rid it of negativity it jus made it worse im seriously thinking of movin out

2006-08-21 [The Naiad]: Hmmm... this is strange. Do you know any of the history of your house [JWOlette] - does it have a local ghost/ spirit living there, or did this negative spirit just appear one day? If so, when did it appear, what was happening in the house at the time?

2006-08-21 [Delladreing]: (Don't worry Silvie I am moving some of it to a wiki so heh >.>)

2006-08-21 [JWOlette]: the house has been lik this for around 3 months and it just appeared out of no where ive seen a shadow thingy then things fly off the walls the beds shake and lift up my godson wakes up screamin with claw marks on his body lights flicker doors slam shut i feel lik im being watched all the time its very creepy

2006-08-22 [The Naiad]: That's very curious, especially that it just appeared. Perhaps it could indeed be a bad spirit or even a God then? Hmmm... But I would not know really what to do about it, other than cleanse your house.

2006-08-22 [Azuri]: wow thats really bad, i had something like that in my old room, but not to that extent. I awoke with scratches and things about my body and i know after i left and my sister took my room something kept yelling at her to get out, that she wasnt welcome. she still wont sleep in that room. but i do hope you figure out whats up with your house O.o Does anyone have any sugestions about how to reduce nightmares other than a dreamcatcher?(we already have one) me and my fiance have done nothing but have horrid dreams for about the past week.

2006-08-22 [The Naiad]: Hmmm... that's strange because in the past week I've been afraid to sleep too, especially in the past few days.

2006-08-22 [Delladreing]: I'd say "oh me too" despite the fact that its true, but it'd make me sound like I am jumping on the band wagon of mysterious goings on. For now though, I would you all mind please not posting this on my site and making it look like a rerun of the Origional Exorcist Story? Cheers thanks bubye.

2006-08-22 [The Naiad]: Haha. Well I just get periods when I can't sleep and get overally paranoid anyways. Wish it wouldn't happen though. X(

2006-08-22 [Delladreing]: I get that too, usually when the pressure is on, like today with my job interview for the job I really really want.

2006-08-22 [The Naiad]: Awh, good luck Dela! ^-^ Yah, well it just happens with me, usually for no reason, and I just get afraid of the dark. Too many ghost stories when I was little probably. LOL.

2006-08-22 [Delladreing]: Helps to keep the light on then lol