2005-10-13 [TheRogue]: now seperate the ripple effect into two categories. Positive, and negative. A negative ripple affects the ripples within range (i.e. other people present, etc) and creates their own ripple effect, thus affecting others in THEIR range.. same with positive..

2005-10-13 [TheRogue]: Example: you are having a bad day. You go to your favorite fast food place to get food, and something gets messed up, which you verbally abuse the server. That server in turn gets angry and takes it out on a friend, who in turn gets angry and isn't paying attention and hits an oncoming car while driving home ranting about the person who ruined their day...they don't know that it was YOU who started it, the ripple has passed over 50 people by then..

2005-10-13 [TheRogue]: everyone can be affected positively or negatively.. Rethink the same scenario only this time instead of ruining a day, they did something nice to that person..and that effect passes over many many others by the time it fizzles out. EVERYTHING you do and say affects someone in some way. .It's up to you to decide if it's going to be positive or negative.

2005-10-13 [Estantia]: the ripples can counter and some people get lucky.

2005-10-13 [TheRogue]: exactly. ^_^

2005-10-13 [Estantia]: which is why think of it as a set of little stories all linked into a massive plot.

2005-10-14 [DanClark]: If you get the chance, read the play 'Office Hours' little linked stories. But another question... (I can't see a good discussion die, can I?)

2005-10-14 [DanClark]: Our actions have consequences, but is our searching for ...a higher consciousness...(for lack of a better term) something that will also have consequences? Just as the search for an advancement in science...is it the search that causes the ripple or simply the result which does?

2005-10-14 [DanClark]: ...oh, and if we all know this to be true, the cause and effect of emotion and reaction....why do we still react out of anger? Why do we not simply try to stop the wave of negativity and spare those who would be affected after us?

2005-10-14 [hive]: in thoses of us who try to live in the cause and effect style is belive we strive harder to not react negativly, but saddly some of us (including me) are still to barbaric to remember to just brush things off when they happen, i belive this to be one of the hardest life lessons to learn, awsome question teacher DanClark.

2005-10-14 [hive]: some people i belive are adicted to a certain type of reaction, they may not be conciously aware that they are, but just like the man who can't get a brake, he may be subconiously feeding on those types of reactions therfore he subconiously finds those actions that will put him in that situation.

2005-10-14 [hive]: people who are in abusive relationships will always get into those relationships subconciously even before they know that person is going to hurt them, how did they know, their mind is addicted to that type of reaction

2005-10-14 [Estantia]: so they're addicted to finding abusers?

2005-10-14 [thoughtfox]: It's certainly possible. although remember that often it's almost a spiral which destroys their confidence, thus they cannot bring themselves to fight against the abusers.

2005-10-14 [thoughtfox]: Other than that, remember that we as humans are often too weak to do something like swim against the flow. Thus as nice as it sounds to try and stop the negative ripples, one has to be an unbelievably strong person. It's not impossible - Gandhi did it very well. But how many people can claim they're half as great as Mahatmaji?

2005-10-14 [DanClark]: But he proved that it is possible. We may not be a great as he was, but he would say you are only as great as you believe yourself to be.

2005-10-15 [thoughtfox]: naturally, it is possible. but it's unbearably difficult at our level. If you read Gandhi's autobiography you'll see how high he was spiritually as compared to the common person. Even his wife could hardly bear it at times

2005-10-15 [Estantia]: But if lots of little things work together then we can make a difference, you have to do what you can.

2005-10-15 [thoughtfox]: Yes. :) We may think that small things are trivial and don't matter, but they can make such a difference.

2005-10-16 [Estantia]: so you don't need to be an unbelieveably strong pereson, you can just be normal and stop what you can.

2005-10-17 [DanClark]: I believe that there is something out there that 'gives' you the power to influence the world around you. So if that particular line of logic rings true...then developing your spirituality, and belief in one's self could increase your influence or reach (ripple speaking). But as Gandhi believed, with great power comes great responsibility, and the affects of your actions should first be pondered BEFORE the action is taken. Which is why people with power must be careful how and what they do.

2005-10-17 [thoughtfox]: Well, if the world around us is, as eastern philosophy explains, an illusion, then certainly if we are closer (through spirituality) to the ultimate reality, then we have some influence on the illusion. Indeed, it is something of a mystery how Gandhi could survive fasts that went over days and still was overall healthy well into his 70s (when he continued to fast). Indeed there is that hidden power you're talking about, DanClark... but thankfully, those who attain it are responsible enough to handle it.

2005-10-17 [thoughtfox]: sorry if it's a bit narrow of me to look specifically from eastern (hindu) philosophy, but that's the one i'm studying in the most depth right now.

2005-10-17 [Estantia]: I'm not studying one, I'm just putting together what I see.

2005-10-20 [DanClark]: In what direction would you like to see this class progress? The conversations to date have been very interesting.

2005-10-20 [Estantia]: what did you mean by creative thing?

2005-10-20 [hive]: if one is resonsable enough to truely "know" that your actions affect your reallity, then in the most part people who have the power to change their perseption of reality to their benifit surely would have the wisdom to use it wisely, i don't think you can live a beautiful life by trying to distroy it, and Gandhi was trying to live a beautiful life and teach us how in the prosses, when we get away from the things of this earth, including basic things like food, and "know" we don't need them to survie, then we start to become a whole with the universe around us.

2005-10-20 [Estantia]: you don't need to starve yourself for it though, you can slip into it at any time...

2005-10-20 [hive]: regreatfully this will be my last comment for awhile, i am starting a commuity with some friends on 360 acres of land, lets see if an experiment in village culture sturs any good conversation for when i return, thank you all for your comments and insight, i have enjoyed this class emensly, and hope the best for you all. kisses and huggs, hive.

2005-10-20 [Estantia]: have fun living, and bring us views on naturalism too!

2005-10-21 [DanClark]: I hope your path leads you on an insightful journey!

2005-10-21 [thoughtfox]: All the best, Hive.... sounds very much like the ashrams Gandhi founded... is it similar?

2005-10-21 [thoughtfox]: Estantia, food is a very physical object. In order to slip into the ultimate reality, we must have control over our desire for physical things. fasting is one way of doing this, and in my opinion it can either be very successful (if you have control over your desires) or pointless if you don't control your desires - because it saps you of concentration you may need.

2005-10-21 [Estantia]: but who says you need to stay in the ultimate reality? you can visit, and that way lead a normal life and a strange one. nothing says you can't have it and let it go.

2005-10-21 [thoughtfox]: certainly - that's the one point where i clash with Gandhi's philosophy. So yes, it is possible to find this ultimate reality. Yes, the world around us is an illusion. So what? it's a brilliant and fun illusion!

2005-10-21 [Estantia]: *laughs* and it's certainly interesting, except when it gets this confusing...

2005-10-22 [DanClark]: Kind of like this thread? :) ....

2005-10-22 [thoughtfox]: lol. Estantia, i found a quote you might like from the Bhagavad Gita. It covers your theory that you don't need to 'starve' yourself: "Meditation is not possible for one who eats too much or does not eat at all, who sleeps too much or who keeps awake."

2005-10-22 [Estantia]: erm, it should be possible for any according to me...

2005-10-22 [thoughtfox]: yes, absolutely... any who want to. I like the concept of moderation, though... that you ought not go to extreme lengths. I know some people who go on tangents... it's quite unnecessary and somewhat self-defeating.

2005-10-23 [Estantia]: it's silly, but if it makes them happy...

2005-10-24 [DanClark]: Actually it is more of a belief that if you dprive yourself of one thing, you could fill it with another. It is also a state of mind...like incense...once you associate a smell with an action, it becomes a trigger and allows you to get there faster.

2005-10-24 [Estantia]: or an image *whistles*

2005-11-03 [hive]: im back, and so glad i am...ok communal life is not possable in this day and age unless you have a huge screening prosses before admission, we were surrounded by tweekers who did nothing to help out, and bums who eat all the food before the month was over. but since i have land myself my husband and i will be starting our own commune.

2005-11-03 [thoughtfox]: All the best for your commune... indeed, it is unfortunate how most people just don't believe in working together. It seems slightly ironic that communism failed because mankind is just too selfish

2005-11-03 [hive]: my comment about the lesson so far is that moderation is the key to a great exsistants, if you start to deprive yourself of things then you run great risk of become addicted to that thing, your body mind and spirit should be allowed to taste everything life has to offer..........in moderation of corse, lol

2005-11-03 [thoughtfox]: but on the other hand, that taste can lead to addiction. I know my parents have always told me never to even try cigarettes or drugs, because i will become addicted. It's rather just better to know that they're dangerous.

2005-11-03 [hive]: belive me, you don't need to try cigarettes or drugs, your way to important to damage your body like that, but you should know that you can get alot higher without drugs then with them, i sound like a drug free commercial, lol

2005-11-06 [hive]: sometimes these triggers are good or bad, like a child who grows up to associate the smell of tobbacco with being beaten by its father or something, how can we stop that from happening and make it into a good association?

2005-11-06 [DanClark]: Some things need to be triggers for bad, or warning, but these things can be unlearned.

2005-11-07 [hive]: do they need to be triggered? is it possable to teach a child, or better yet unteach a child the warnings that are taught to trigger, could a person grow up to touch fire, bend steel, i know that some have achived this but they were mostly adults.

2005-11-08 [thoughtfox]: I always wonder about the awkward silence that we experience around strangers. Most people will never talk to a complete stranger, and I believe it's somewhat limiting - especially since strangers don't know anything/care about you, so you can just share absolute secrets and remove all stress from yourself with no fear. I wonder - could it be that we can't talk to strangers because we're told from a very young age, "Never talk to strangers"? Yes, for a child it is important that he does not talk to strange adults... but for an adult responsible for him/herself, i think this needs to be unlearned

2005-11-08 [DanClark]: I could also stem {thoughtfox}, for the lack of connection to that person. Haven't there been times where you've just started talking with someone you don't know?

2005-11-08 [hive]: thats a great observation thoughtfox, i can only remember talking to strangers i felt comfortable around, like an elderly person or someone at a party of a mutual friend. now in years past, like in our parents and grandparents age it was impolite to not talk to people, before people were afraid of one another. :(

2005-11-08 [hive]: the government where i live has alot to do with us being afraid of one another, and people who fear each other are dangerous.

2005-11-09 [DanClark]: That...and people who are afraid tend to be easier to control. Instinct is easier to predict than an individual thought process.

2005-11-09 [hive]: i always say to my husband that we (humans) are more primitive then we think we are. didn't Einstein say something along the lines of our tecnology surpassing our humanity? 

2005-11-09 [thoughtfox]: Well, he was a genius, wasn't he? Given: atomic theory. A system which allows us to produce a substansial amount of energy. What do we do with it? Blow up two cities in such a horrific way that the deadly radiation lingers for decades. Next, we create more of them, and develop them to the extent that we have enough to annihilate our planet, and ourselves. I really don't understand why we cling on to them, because if terrorists get hold of them, THEY'RE the ones who will actually use them.

2005-11-09 [thoughtfox]: Indeed, the world today is governed by fear. Capitalism values competition, therefore we're all in a race against one another to collect as many small green pieces of paper as possible. We thus have much reason to fear each other - we're competition. But surely if we all supported one another, we'd get further? The fact that most of the great souls whose generosity was infinite were murdered... by us.

2005-11-10 [DanClark]: What frightens me is when an actor or an athelete or singer are thought of more highly than a doctor or scientist.

2005-11-10 [TheRogue]: That is probably because actors are known only for their entertainment; Doctors and Scientists have the charge of bringing just as much bad news as good...

2005-11-10 [thoughtfox]: Is it just me, or is there a lot more violence against doctors these days? There've been many cases in South Africa, and in Israel there was a nationwide strike because of it.

2005-11-10 [DanClark]: Our biggest frustration is the wait time to be seen. For a specialist it can be as long as 6 monthes

2005-11-10 [Estantia]: do you want them to treat people properly or fast?

2005-11-11 [DanClark]: Properly of course, however, that is not the case. I've waited 10+ hrs in an emergency room with a broken arm, when if I'd come in an ambulance I would have passed immediately. Unfortunately the delays are purely bureaucracy.

2005-11-11 [thoughtfox]: It gets worse... down here many of the doctors are money-obsessed. There have been cases where emergency cases were not admitted to private hospitals because the patients didn't have, or didn't appear to have, medical aid funds. So the ambulances had to drive them all the way across town to a state hospital.

2005-11-11 [hive]: and again, saddly, most of the time it has to do with money, but i do agree that a doctor should make more then someone who just has talent, these people who become doctors had to go through 8 to 10 years of school and inturnship, plus pay for it, but money will currupt anyone, like the one ring, doesn't matter if you are pure of heart, money is power in this age, untill we have a great clensing this will be......only my knowlege that this is only a shell that my spirit lives in helps me though.

2005-11-11 [Estantia]: only stories help me.

2005-11-12 [thoughtfox]: Stories help me, Indian culture helps me, and the thought that maybe once i come out of this sheltered childhood that my parents smother me with I might find some strength to live on a subsistence level.

2005-11-12 [Estantia]: I can survive, but i don't have to have what I need in order to.

2005-11-14 [hive]: charish the shelter your parents have you in, there will be plenty of time for exploration when you become an adult, being a kid doesn't last as long as i think it should, lol

2005-11-14 [Estantia]: I know, it's a bummer isn't it?

2005-11-14 [DanClark]: More than you know.

2005-11-14 [Estantia]: i'm said to act older than I am, and as a result see childhood with an adult view, I love it!

2005-11-14 [hive]: i just made up my mind to learn more from the young, they are the ones who still have that great ableity to see the unseen, and believe in the unbelievable. they are the great teachers, and this includes you thoughtfox ;)

2005-11-15 [Estantia]: but the unbelieveable is now mnuch more widely believed, by children and adults alike.

2005-11-15 [thoughtfox]: :$ Thank you, Hive, you're too kind... but, very much like Estantia, i'm also mature for my age... and as much as i appreciate my parents' protection, and realise how difficult the outside world is, it's becomes difficult to study metaphysics in a secular, nationalistic family.

2005-11-15 [thoughtfox]: Absolutely, Estantia, belief in the surreal is rising... but i often wonder to what ends? Sometimes it becomes more of a fad, or a way to hopefully rid oneself of stress... i sometimes wonder if people really believe it for better or worse, or are just riding the wave looking for a panacea. Despite this, there are obviously many who DO explore the unexplainable out of true interest, as is obvious in this class.

2005-11-15 [Estantia]: how people get into this place in the first place is also interesting, I took stories to escape reality at first, now it's my life in a way. Finding someone who took a slightly different path from me back then. That was odd. I hated them i dadmit.

2005-11-15 [hive]: saddly today we tend to push our youth into becoming more mature. i know in my country the media is so focused on making young girls feel so insicure with their bodies that many of them develope eating disorders by age 13, we also have trouble with letting kids be kids, i think all youth should have the oppertunity to explore the possablity that everything is possable. because it is, through manifistation you can achive anything and everything. if you allow a child to grow up not just to belive but know that anything and everything is possable imagine the possablities! ;)

2005-11-15 [hive]: i also understand where you are coming from Estantia, it is the fasion to belive in the unknown, but the spirit will deturman weather or not they really (belive) this, or are just following the crowd. we here in Elftown, or the majoraty anyway, are the ones who don't have to think twice about something being possable, we are the true dreamers, not just the want-to-be's.

2005-11-15 [Estantia]: fashion to believe int he unknown? i beg to differ... lots of people I know are more worried about either looks, boyfriends/girlfriends, sex or grades with the side subject of computers.

2005-11-16 [DanClark]: More that it is beling sensationalised by movies and TV. Everything has a cycle...including beliefs.

2005-11-16 [Estantia]: they do, cycles and balance.

2005-12-15 [hive]: here in america it is a real big deal right now, the whole supernatural thing, is this a healthy thing for our new generations? do you think that this new couriosity of the unknown is good for the people, or since it is a fad of some sort, is this detramental?

2005-12-16 [Estantia]: is it a fad? we don't know, though many people I've sween say it's not a fad. I happen to think it is, as I would have probably lost my sanity some time ago were it not for fantasy...

2005-12-16 [hive]: well, i say fad because it just sprang up in the t.v. and books, plus the american culture is obsessed with anything that the celebraties do over here, so since alot of them are into it so is the population. i know myself, i have always been interested in anything fantasy. ;)

2005-12-16 [Estantia]: same, it's an escape, not a fad.

2005-12-19 [DanClark]: Isn't religion an escape as well? Don't we put a belief in something that cannot be proved and leave feeling as if there is good that needs only be uncovered?

2005-12-19 [Estantia]: it is an escape, it just so happens that creativity practically is a religion in itself.

2005-12-20 [DanClark]: Yes, it is.

2005-12-20 [Estantia]: so which is it? both are fads or neither?

2005-12-20 [hive]: and why are some religions fads and only around for awhile, while others linger, do they have more physical evidence, or was it the fear factor that made some of them almost emortal?

2005-12-20 [Estantia]: or was it because they makes sense and people agree because those religions agree with older ones?

2005-12-20 [hive]: i belive that we come back to manifestation, and that if you are beliveing to the point of (knowing), then you manifest the reallity you want to achieve, if you belive your going to heaven, then you are.

2005-12-20 [Estantia]: now where have I heard that beofre...(discworld, lots of times) it;s clever how he weaves things like that in.

2005-12-20 [hive]: thats why i love this class, such great students and teacher

2005-12-21 [DanClark]: I would ponder a guess that the religions who were documented tended to last the longest. As artifacts were uncovered and mysteries solved, the older religions came forward. Actually it was Norse mythology that forsaw its own demise and resurgance... I believe it said: 'The religion of the many will be replaced by the religion of the one, but again will the multitude reign." (and thank-you, but i believe most of the credit here goes to the students.)

2005-12-21 [Estantia]: (not me then, I'm not officially a student...) it seems so, because other longer lasting religions were there before documentaion, so we don;t know how old they are.

2005-12-22 [DanClark]: Exactly. (and you're a student...even if you're not 'documented')

2005-12-22 [Estantia]: but everyone is a student in a way

2005-12-22 [DanClark]: Absolutely

2005-12-22 [Estantia]: got to love the loopholes really...

2005-12-24 [hive]: circles everywhere, lol......plus the fact that alot of religions fused together to form others, by the way...merry yule, christmas, hanakah, ect. everybody, hope you all get everything you want and need, also happy new year!!!! ;)

2005-12-24 [Estantia]: there is an easy way to say that... "Happy holidays and a prosperous new year" see, perfectly pc...

2005-12-24 [thoughtfox]: Well, the two oldest religions that have not perished at all, as far as I understand, are Judaism and Hinduism. The former survived by sheer will and unity. The latter, Hinduism, survived in the exact opposite way - it gave no resistance, but absorbed the other religions and manifested itself according to what was needed at the time.

2005-12-24 [Estantia]: that is an advantage with multiple gods that are aspects of one.

2005-12-27 [DanClark]: Actually...to be totally PC you'd have to say " happy holidays and a prosperous future"... to get technical.....;)

2005-12-27 [thoughtfox]: PCness is really going a bit far, I think. These are people you meet in passing, not lifelong friends who ought to know you very well! They're only trying to be nice.

2005-12-27 [Estantia]: exactly, I think the best idea of politeness is to say to the person what they said to you, of course, that relies on them speaking first.

2005-12-27 [DanClark]: ..Why that would mean we would rarely speak! Too often talking is seen as seen as an invasion, the perpetuation of fear so ideas and views will not be expressed. Fear is a very strong weapon that is now used more subtlelly then in other times.

2005-12-27 [thoughtfox]: oh, don't i know that too well! I nearly had my nose broken in Thailand after complimenting a complete stranger! It was innocent, really... I was merely trying to break those unfortunate boundaries and state a fact. The woman's boyfriend, though, wasn't impressed...

2005-12-27 [thoughtfox]: Fear is a strong weapon... against truth. Perhaps we need to pioneer a wave of talking, and hopefully it'll catch on. Most people are just naturally afraid of other people. After all, one tends to imagine that there must be a particular reason to talk to a complete stranger. And seeing how 90% of the people we meet are strangers, we're seriously inhibiting ourselves.

2005-12-27 [Estantia]: true, but you can make reasons...

2005-12-27 [thoughtfox]: yes, but what I mean is that most people imagine that if you confront them, you have a reason to do so: if it is a person of the opposite gender, they may think you are attempting to flirt. Or, they may think you're trying to sell them something.

2005-12-27 [Estantia]: not if you do small talk.

2005-12-27 [thoughtfox]: It depends on the stranger you're talking to. I suppose I was asking for trouble by going out of my way to talk to strangers, lol

2005-12-27 [Estantia]: sometimes yes, sometimes not.

2005-12-28 [DanClark]: It also depends on the situation.

2005-12-28 [nokaredes]: I said "hi" to a guy on the street once, and he stopped and asked me if I needed help x_x

2005-12-28 [Estantia]: that probably was a little odd...

2005-12-29 [thoughtfox]: indeed, and that's what i mean! people just aren't used to being confronted by complete strangers who just want to talk

2005-12-29 [Estantia]: bujt on the net it's completely acceptable, amazing.

2005-12-29 [thoughtfox]: yes - that makes one curious how many people are actually telling the truth! But the real question is... where exactly are we going? Perhaps one day talking to strangers will be completely unheard of - perhaps we will not even leave our homes! speaking to people based on their appearance will be far less of an issue, and you'll talk to people based on their interests, and the personality they portray, whether or not it's who they really are!

2005-12-29 [Estantia]: but surely we shouldn't base aquaintances on appearance? mind you appeaeance can give an insight into the personalities, take teenagers, I can easily tell the 'popular' girls from the crowd and that does help, I steer clear of them and find the ones that dont, and body language also is an indicator, personally I'll always make a beeline for the person sitting on their own in a class or wherever on the basis of being more likely to be nice, but that could be another sort of person. Louder people would be drawn to a large laughing group, so we do base on interests and personality, it's just portrayed in different ways.

2005-12-29 [thoughtfox]: I wasn't saying it was a bad thing - it was a mere prediction. Yes, to an extent we can judge people from their body language, the way they dress, etc to an extent. One has to deduce these things, and it's not always simple. If you saw me walking down the street, there's no way you'd know I'm interested in metaphysics. Only If you met me at a lecture about it, or spoke to me about something related to it, you'd find out.

2005-12-29 [Estantia]: exactly, but quite often the general idea of a personality is all you need to start a friendship, and I probably wouldn't be surprised that you liked metaphysics if I knew you. Quite a lot of my discussions turn this way anyway...

2005-12-30 [nokaredes]: After a while, if the way the world went was to just write profiles and never leave your house, I think a lot more people would tell the truth in them.

2005-12-30 [DanClark]: You also need to look at the factor that those who are 'talking' on the net, are all proactive. there isn't any threat of being hit or slapped by saying hello, because when you get down to it, everyone here will talk to you...to an extent.

2005-12-30 [Estantia]: however there will always be those who lie and use annomymity...

2005-12-30 [DanClark]: and how is that different then the real world?

2005-12-30 [Estantia]: people get away with it more often online

2005-12-30 [DanClark]: Funny, I could have sworn it was the otherway around.

2005-12-30 [Estantia]: it's just harder to find out on here, I bet over half the people who say they're turkish and have nothing else on their profile aren't really turkish, just jumped on the bandwagon when the turkish men started to get their elftown reputation.

2006-01-03 [thoughtfox]: Well, since this topic seems to have gone silent, I cam across an intriguing metaphysical poem in the Hong Kong Space Museum which may interest all of you. It should be very interesting to discuss. Personally, I find it a Taoist poem with an existential twist. You decide what you think.

2006-01-03 [Estantia]: it looks more like a riddle to me...

2006-01-04 [DanClark]: It is the universe. Very nice thoughtfox, thank-you for sharing with all of us. I must also whole heartedly agree that we seem to be headed in a more philosophical direction than a metaphysical one. So....

2006-01-04 [Estantia]: what's the diffference between them>?

2006-01-04 [thoughtfox]: To go to the dictionary, metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, so there's not really much difference. Although metaphysics deals specifically with what appears to be unreal, whereas general philosophy deals with general knowledge and thought (as in our debate about where the Internet is taking us)

2006-01-04 [thoughtfox]: Precisely what first came to my mind, Danclark. It is the universe in its entirety. What interests me is the last three lines. IMHO it describes man's attitude: as Nietzche tells us, "God is dead".

2006-01-04 [Estantia]: god is what you make it, as are love and life (I've gone philosophical again...)

2006-01-04 [thoughtfox]: (no that fits well into metaphysics ;P ) Well, a funny comment gives us God's reply to this statement: "Nietzche is dead." God is absolutely what we make of it. It's not 'who' you pray to, it's how you pray. All these people who have found power in their religions - it wasn't because they prayed to the deity of that religion that they were blessed with fortune. It was the love and devotion they had which inspired the Universal God.

2006-01-05 [DanClark]: 'were you to pray to a rock, and hundreds upon hundreds of others pray to the same rock, does not the rock become a god?'

2006-01-05 [DanClark]: As for the last three lines..it is a poetic turn on a scientific truth...'for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction' Big Bang meets Big Implosion...news at 11.......

2006-01-05 [Estantia]: faith is interesting, if people believe they will get better then they usually do...

2006-01-06 [DanClark]: there is a local history of a monk, Brother Andre, who was supposedly able to heal people by laying of hands. A great uncle of mine was healed by him, so I'm told. They were building the oratory on Mount Royal and my uncle fell from the roof and broke his leg, Brother Andre came up to him and told him to get up and finish God's work...and he did.

2006-01-06 [Estantia]: that's an interesting story to say the least...

2006-01-11 [0000----]: If people do really have healing powers then I don't belive it has anything to do with god. Because if it was god's power doing the healing that would mean that god intervines with the universe. Something I belive he - if he exists - does not do; the amount of needless suffering and starvation that goes on in the world, and god chooses to heal some guy with a beoken leg... That makes no sense to me.

2006-01-11 [0000----]: I belive that healing powers - if they exist - could be something everybody has, we just don't know how to use them... maybe

2006-01-11 [DanClark]: I agree and disagree with that thought. I believe god is always doing someting..We are all here to experience everything, thus the pain and starvation.

2006-01-11 [thoughtfox]: I agree with DanClark. God continually intervenes in the world - God IS the world. Suffering is part of the illusion of the world, which is created for the experience. The healing powers, and other miracles, are available to us all, depending on our connection to God of all religions. It's how close we are to it that determines our influence on the world around us.

2006-01-11 [Sunrose]: Hmm, I think if you look at it the way you describe, you don't have to be close to God to have those powers. Some people just have them..

2006-01-11 [Estantia]: maybe people find that being closer to their god makes them able to use powers they could have used anyway.

2006-01-12 [0000----]: I see what you mean about the pain being part of the learning prosses whitch is life. But if it is then why did god heal that guys unkle with the broken leg, is a broken leg not part of the experiance of living?

2006-01-12 [Estantia]: maybe god had a plan for him that needed his leg healed, like improving the kleos of jesus

2006-01-12 [thoughtfox]: i think miracles are available to us all on small-scale. Broken legs count as small. Hungry populations don't. However, even people within impoverished communities find miracles.

2006-01-12 [Estantia]: true, just as everything is beautiful if you look hard enough.

2006-01-13 [0000----]: Everything is beautifull? So a starving 3 year old kid with a paracitic worm living in his eyeball slowly eating it away untill he is blind is a beautifull thing? What kind of a sick god lets that happen? What is that kid going to learn from life? He's gonna suffer a short painfull life, then die. Sorry, but i can't see how that is a beautifull thing no matter how hard I look at it.

2006-01-13 [Estantia]: ok, that was an extreme example, but I was trying to say there is a good side to everything, in that situation the kid doesn't have to suffer for a long time and the worm can live on the flesh (disgusting as it is)

2006-01-13 [0000----]: How is it an extreme example? This is the world we live in people... But as I say, what is the meaning of that boys life if he is just to suffer and then die, I couldn't accept a rightious god if he let that happen, therefore I belive that he could not have the ability to do anything about it.

2006-01-13 [Estantia]: I was saying nothing about the morality of god, personally I don't know what's up there, though I think something's behind it all, more a storyteller as I said before though... Maybe that boy's life was to show someone else something they needed to know, I don't know. In that case death is a blessing though.

2006-01-13 [thoughtfox]: Funkmaister, even that child will find his own miracles. Perhaps a charity organisation shall come across him, and specialised doctors will heal him out of the goodness of their heart? And though I'm not going to tell you cliche's like "God works in mysterious ways" - God is not sick, nor does he let things happen - God creates everything, good and bad - in order to experience everything. If not for suffering, this world would be boring and meaningless.

2006-01-13 [Estantia]: perfect is boring, and how do you know what the good is without the bad? how do you know happiness without sadness? dark without light?

2006-01-14 [thoughtfox]: Good and bad in themselves are moot points - what one person finds good another will dislike. As Carl Jung says, "The mind oscillates between sense and nonsense, not right and wrong."

2006-01-14 [Estantia]: Or does it? because people don't think in terms of sense and nonsense, just good and bad, so if people think of it that way they're just giving their own definition to the words surely?

2006-01-15 [DanClark]: Funny that we all believe that God is here to save/protect/help us. Not to say that God does not care for us, but more to say that we have become selfrighteous in believing that we are all that matters. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things that child would have grown up to kill. Perhaps the child's death or suffering will cause others to react. Perhaps we as humans are not God's main concern, perhaps he/she cares for the world...for everything he/she has created. Death is not the end, it is merely a cycle of events...something we need to learn to accept.

2006-01-15 [Estantia]: I don't think of it that way, just a series of stories, some things have to happen in order for others to, look at it this waym would you be the person you are without us talking like this?

2006-01-16 [0000----]: I guess it's a very porsonal thing what you choose to belive, I don't wanna step on anyones feet here but I have to say that I strongly disagree with what thoughtfox said: "even that child will find his own miracles." I'm sorry, but the world doesn't work like that, and that's just a fact. Kid's starve and die every day, and god does not do anythig about it. That is a simple fact; Yeah, prehaps some charity will come across him, save his life and take him away to a happy place with little fluffy white bunnys with cute little noses, but most likely not. Most likely he'll crawl up into a corner and die alone. Sorry to bust your bubble thoughtfox.

2006-01-16 [0000----]: I think it is important that we understand that the world isn't some fairy story where everything allways turns out good for everybody in the end. Anyway, incase any of you guys have belive the bible, then Jesus's predictions for how the world will end is that there will be allot of sinning, natural catastrophies and wars, then we'll all die. Great plan God. How did you come up with that one?! Your gonna make a bunch of humans in your own likeness, your gonna make them toil for a bit, they'll kill each other and they'll sin some, maby a few of them will be enlightened and go to heaven, but most of them not, then they'll all die. Sorry to question God's wisdome, but what's this guy on?!

2006-01-16 [DanClark]: We only find that out when we die. And given the view you have, wouldn't that death be a welcome respite to the toil and pain we suffer at each other's hands?

2006-01-16 [Estantia]: I wasn't saying it always turned up good, just that things MIGHT happen for a reason, some people MIGHT make a stuid choice, some get those stupid choices made for them. But there is always a good side. In the worse cases it is relief ofrom suffereing by death. Just as every brightest life will have a downside, imagine the media dogging your every move as a famous soap star?

2006-01-17 [0000----]: Good point DanClark, though I can't say I especially do want to die at the moment, though I'm sure it will be a relief when the time comes. Maby I'm just sticking out the ride hoping that god will prove me wrong. Not that I'm saying that life aint' worth living, I'm lucky enough to be born in a rich country, and have been given a chance to live a fulfilling life. I just despair in the fact that others are not so lucky.

2006-01-17 [thoughtfox]: No need to apologise, [0000----], there was no bubble to burst: I was giving an extreme example, and I am aware that life doesn't end happily ever after. But even that child will find small miracles - perhaps even he comes across a cash-note that someone dropped, and uses it to buy himself his favourite chocolate? Yes, it's a trivial thing, but to that child, it will be a moment of joy.

2006-01-17 [thoughtfox]: and if you despair at the fact that others are not so lucky, why not lend what you can to help those less fortunate? Perhaps that's God's plan for you - not to despair, but to act. Yes, you're not going to be able to help everyone, but what little bit you do will mean a lot for the people you help.

2006-01-17 [DanClark]: To add to [thoughtfox]'s sentiment...you are already doing something by vocalizing your feelings. Unfortunately that is much more than most do.

2006-01-17 [Estantia]: many give money to charities to fund those small miracles, a fresh loaf of bread even.

2006-01-18 [0000----]: Yeah, I agree, we in the west are very selfish. The is enough food in the world to feed everybody, it just doesn't get the the people who need it.

2006-01-18 [0000----]: But I was wondering; is this really metaphsics? Isn't this just plain philosophy?

2006-01-18 [Estantia]: It does tend to drift, but try and define metaphysics without dipping into philosophy...

2006-01-18 [DanClark]: metaphysics is a dip into the unexplained and spiritual links that bind the universe as we know it together. Anything that cannot be explained could be grouped into this domain. If however there are other things you would all like to discuss, I am more than willing to lend an opinion or experience to the conversation.

2006-01-18 [Estantia]: here's a question, what do you think about those who communicate telepathically? possible?

2006-01-19 [DanClark]: I believe yes. There have been studies of twins being able to 'read' how each other is feeling, so why not telepathy?

2006-01-19 [Estantia]: not only twins but sisters, friends and other examples, I myself have found two people who can see from a pov that's not theirs...

2006-01-19 [nokaredes]: My friend [~And the wind calls her Demona~] sometimes reads my mind...it's very creepy when she gets offended at my thoughts...(e.g. "I'm not stupid!" >_>)

2006-01-20 [thoughtfox]: Yes, but there's a difference between authentic telepathy and being able to judge a person one knows well through that person's body-language. I can't read my best friend's mind, but I can tell when he's annoyed, and know what it is that annoys him because we've known each other for years

2006-01-20 [nokaredes]: ...she wasn't looking at me in that particular example...she wasn't even in the same room :P

2006-01-20 [0000----]: I belive in a collective concsiousness: There was a test done in America, where they isolated a bunch of people, and every day they gave them crossword puzzels to do. Some of these days they gave them idividual crosswords, and on other days they gave them the same crossword that had been in the newspaper the day before. On the crosswords that had been in the newspaper and done by thousands of other people they got 20% better scores. This means that since other pople had allready worked it out they found it easyer to do it themselves.

2006-01-20 [0000----]: This might also explain the way that humans seemed to work things out at the same time all over the world. Even the people who started to walk and use tools, all around the world, without any form of comunication. And the way piramides were built using the same mathmatical calculations by both the mayas in southern america and the egyptians at the same time.

2006-01-20 [Estantia]: it does xpkain some things, but there is always evidence to the contry, and there's the fact that trade was actually quite active, it could easily be possible that people traded ideas and improved them.

2006-01-20 [thoughtfox]: Yes, fair trade was active, but I'm not sure it was trans-atlantically active. I'll need to do more reasearch into that, though, but it seems somewhat unlikely. It would mean that it was neither the vikings nor Columbus who discovered America first...

2006-01-20 [Estantia]: yes but if columbus wasn't the first why should vikings be?

2006-01-23 [0000----]: I live in norway, and the norwegians sware on the fact that they dicovered america before columbus. They just went there and did some trading, then went back again. This was long after the pyramids where built though... I think...

2006-01-23 [thoughtfox]: yes, it was at the time of the vikings, who were known for the seafaring skills. I doubt that the Egyptians went past the Mediterranean. A trans-atlantic journey is far more difficult. I still have to look into it, though, i've been really busy with school.

2006-01-23 [DanClark]: There is also the land bridge, a causway between northern China and Northern Canada, the beginnings of Native Americans and the Inuit

2006-01-23 [Estantia]: so it could be feasibly possible?

2006-01-24 [DanClark]: In theory, yes.

2006-01-24 [Estantia]: so it may not be a proof of collective consciousness, though other events seem to suggest it, like the invention of the tv, though done in different ways which is a puzzle, and individual's interpretation of the same thought? that could also explain the differences in mayan and egyptian pyramids.

2006-01-27 [hive]: well, when it comes to who discovered America im afraid i would have to say it was my people, the Native Americans. but going back into the question at hand, since we are all a part of one speicies, the human race, is it not possible that we share the memories of our ancesters dating back to the begaining of time, and that we could at will chanel any possable answer to any question simple by memory? also im sorry ive been gone for so long, this winter has been quite hard on us this year.

2006-01-27 [Estantia]: that's fine, and I'd say the native americans too, we weren't saying who discovered it, but whether they could have taken the idea of the pyramids.

2006-02-15 [hive]: and, since the ancectors came from the land bridge, carring the memories of im sure africa with them, then its more then possable that the idea of the pyramids was present in someones mind. then again it wasn't the native americans who built the pyramids in south america, i belive it was the right time in the evolution of our race that this kind of structure was ready to be built, and that it had nothing to do with the egyptians since the two groups were building them at about the same time,